Bits is bits.

sksfreund June 10, 2006 20:12

Sksfreund,
Sorry to keep you waiting but I haven't been back to A'gon since a couple days after I last wrote you - I caught that flu that's been going around. Now to try and answer your questions...
So, (deep breath) how do I know that the surface the Maverick was sitting on was "vibrating in time with the midbass exciting a resonance in the player's shell, which in turn constantly engaged the uber-sensitive skip protection circuit - causing the player to consistently sound cheap & BAD"? Simple, all I needed was a little background info. about how cd players function, my system, a cd, some deductive reasoning and my hands. Cd players have a process of correcting data errors by use of a fast-acting error correction circuit called a "CIRC." This is an acronym for Cross Interleaved Reed (Solomon) Code which is essentially a code that instructs a calculator circuit that turns on and "figures out" or "approximates" what the missing or misread data should (or might) be, combines it with the data-stream and sends this slightly incorrect and more mediocre signal on to the dac. This CAN be difficult to distinguish from a cheap dac (with poor quality parts), data mis-clocking artifacts (jitter) or a mechanically poor transport. It's always best (in high-fi anyway) to avoid a problem rather than try and correct it. I admit that it's difficult to discern, by ear, what the problem is but there are lots of things you can try to figure it out. To check whether I'm right you'll simply need to try the NORDOST Pulsar Points isolators (in particular because I can vouch for them and not neccessarily for others)...they aren't just "audio jewelry" -they really do work! You should hear an immediate increase in clarity and subtle detail simultaneously with decreased -if not completely eliminated- vibration. You can easily feel this vibration with your hands by placing them (your hands, not the isolators) on top of your player and your equipment rack.
You'll (assuming the "quick-fix" isolators don't actually "quick-fix" the problem) then want to go through your ENTIRE SYSTEM, i.e. the source cable, preamp, interconnect, amp. and so on, swapping out components listening for the phenomena to track down the culprit. After all, there's just no way that two players -especially as different as those two are from each other- should sound as similar as you're describing they do. Also, don't forget to pay close attention to the power (line conditioning, power cables, all electrical contacts even the wall socket) as your amplifier could be under strain (not getting enough juice as there may be a faulty, corroded or loose connection somewhere down the line.) Any of these "less than optimal" circumstances could be responsible for your system not having the resolving ability to discern these subtle differences. I can give you loads of useful info. on how to go about this and it's all cheaper than 1 set of isolators - but a LOT MORE work.
Secondly, A-B comparisons are not neccessarily always definitive, among other reasons, because the two cdp's don't actually share the same circuit (although I suspect that the problem would still exist if you swapped inputs on the two players) and because the problem is likely elsewhere in the system. Maybe the particular overall sound that the Cambridge has is similar to the MF but not as detailed. Maybe you are simply hearing bad sound that wasn't present in your MF dealer's listening room - like your particular room's acoustics. A-B comparisons aren't my style, but it would be a simple matter to check this theory of yours out by doing some legwork (since I believe that you don't already have another preamp that you could use to test with.) Just find a hi-fi retailer that wouldn't be opposed to letting you bring your 2 cd players in for a listening session/comparo with their high end cd players and amps. A good retailer wouldn't have a problem with that - as it sounds like you might be really serious about upgrading - a little devious & sneaky, but FREE :). If you have deeper pockets, you could just buy another preamp and bring it home, hook it up test it out and bring it back and get your money back. My retailer has no compunctions about doing that for me. Great hi-fi shops are few and far between however. How serious are you about getting the best out of your stereo? I hope that helped give you some options - short of actually returning the cdp and trying another one. I'm always eager & happy (at least to try) to assist a fellow music/stereo enthusiast...let me know. You don't happen to live in Arizona do you - a second pair of ears might help?
-Best of Regards, Bruce
Ps. If you can, try pulling out your speakers further from the front wall as that will allow you to more easily discover totally hidden or subtle staging nuances like whether a vocalist is standing 6 or 12 feet in front of the percussionist. These subtle details/differences can be the difference between the music sounding real or fake - in the room with you or you in theirs.

bruce30 March 31, 2006 18:51

Bruce30,
Don't worry about offending me, you won't. I just want to get the best out of my stereo system, even if that means being told my system isn't set up properly. But first, I have some questions for you. How do you know that the surface the Maverick was sitting on was "vibrating in time with the midbass - exciting a resonance in the player's shell, which in turn constantly engaged the uber-sensitive skip protection circuit - causing the player to consistently sound "cheap & BAD." ? Second, were you using the same technique to compare the sound of the two players (i.e. connecting them both to a preamp and playing the same cd on both players, switching back and forth between the two via the remotes imput selector), because that is really my question. Is this method of comparing cd players flawed? It seems to me that this is the only viable way to compare source electronics. The lag time from one source to the other is zero. I can switch from one player to the other instantaneously, so I can compare instantaneously. If I instead tried to play one cd player, unhook it, plug in the next cd player, and play the same song on the new player, that lag time would be about 2 mins or so. That is a long enough time to forget the exact nuances of the player, at least it is for me.

sksfreund March 12, 2006 20:02

Hello: I can relate to what you're going through. I have a less than optimal setup on a non-audiophile equipment rack. I also have a TV on mine. I'm fairly confident that I can improve my sys sonics with better setup but I'm not willing to spend the money for the rack I want right now. I have a Jolida JD 100 and a Modwright Sony 999ES w/ Sig Truth mod. I previoulsy had a Simaudio Nova. The Mod Sony and the Nova I had are both more expensive players than the Jolida, but the performance between them has not always been far apart. But hang in there with Mu Fi player. Power cords can and do make a difference. (quality of power makes a big difference!)I recently put a new PC on one of my players that took it to another level I never heard before. The quality of the power feeding your system also makes a huge difference. I know for sure because my local power company has been working on the equipment in my area and the end result was that my sytem sonics was transformed and I now have a more dynamic system. The lesson I learned is that the quality of the power to your system matters so much: things like dedicated lines, power conditioners and power cords which all affect the power feeding your system can make or break the sound of your system. I also use a Shunyata Hydra 4 and connect my cdp's to it. This Plc always helps your digital. But the power company changes in my area proved to me that the quality of the electricity feedin your system can radically change what you're hearing. Make as many quality changes to condition your systems power that you can afford to do.

foster_9 March 10, 2006 12:55

CDP's often sound similar (especially good ones) and these similarities can be confounding. Before you give up on that player try some isolation. In fact, just try Nordost Pulsar Points. The reason I'm still badgering you about set-up (and isolation in particular) is that I've encountered a similar situation myself: I have an older Rotel player & borrowed a $1500 MusicHall Maverick to "test" what a new higher-end cdp could do for my system (i.e. how much should I allocate for one with my budget.) I was shocked to discover just how infinitesimally small a difference there actually was. I thought "what a frickin' racket this high end cdp market is!" I'm definitely not going to allocate more than $500 for MY source unit! Well, I put my isolators underneath and WHAM!, everything immediately snapped into focus! I swear it sounded like a TOTALLY different player. As it turned out, the surface the cdp was sitting on was vibrating in time with the midbass - exciting a resonance in the player's shell, which in turn constantly engaged the uber-sensitive skip protection circuit - causing the player to consistently sound "cheap & BAD." Maybe I'm WAY OFF BASE here but do think it's possible that MF is using the same anti-skip circuit that Cambridge is using? The differences I've heard between players (optimally set-up) are almost as profound as a new pre/power amp. My point is this: If your set-up is REALLY "not optimal" - you MAY not hear a big difference (or in fact ANY difference) when the music is passing through a cheap circuit DESIGNED to gloss over "potential disc read errors" in order to avoid skipping - likely, you won't hear anything better or indeed different from before (when your last player was -POSSIBLY- constantly in "skip protection mode.") I realize I sound like a butthead but I'm just trying to help out. As for the question of the two players being louder or quieter than each other - MOST cdp's output 2 volts. This is due to compatibility issues with multi-brand consumer product matching. If they (cdp mfrs.) all did totally different output voltages like 5 volts, 1 volt, etc., etc. - consumers could quickly rule their product out for input attenuation reasons. Hey, YOU asked. Just trying to help.

bruce30 March 08, 2006 17:24

I have stated before that I agree the setup is less than optimal, however it is a necessity. However, my point is that if the Musical Fidelity player is more than $1000 more expensive than the Cambridge player, even in a less than optimal setup I should hear SOME difference. I, on the other hand, hear no difference what so ever. I toggle back and forth between the two players and there isn't even so much as an infinitesimily small difference in volume, sibilance, bass, soundstage, etc. I must say in the players defense, the build quality is awsome and I love the way it looks and feels (heck I am in love with their 3.2 amp and pre-amp), but if it doesn't sound better than it's just audio jewlery and I am not one for jewlery. I am torn. I want so badly to hear a difference, so trust me, if their where one I would almost definitely hear it.

sksfreund March 02, 2006 06:07

Get isolated. I strongly believe there is nothing wrong with your gear - it's the set-up. If you won't/can't get that TV away from your music system...put it on a piece of mdf and put some isolation under it (so it'll reduce the resonating/vibrating of the plastic shell) I'd recommend getting your hands on some decent isolators like Nordost Pulsar Points or Bright Star Audio, etc...and stick 'em under your gear. 90% of a system's sound is due to set up. This means EVERYTHING BESIDES THE GEAR i.e. the choice of the listening room, the placement of electronics in the room out of bass nodes, the isolation of equipment from colliding soundwaves and highly resonant particle board "equipment racks," harsh sidewall reflections from speakers, etc., etc., etc.! ALL OF THIS STUFF ADDS UP. What I'm trying to say is that, YES, your comparison method is most certainly flawed. It's like trying to judge the finer differences between two similar Columbian coffees using dirty cups on different days. Clean-up the set-up. Also, I noticed from the pics you posted, you should think about pulling your speakers out (away from the front & side walls.) Speakers "come alive" when you decrease their interaction with room boundaries. The farther out they are, the less the soundstage is compressed, the more distinct images "appear."

Try this: If your bass sounds good where the speakers currently stand - measure this distance from the front wall (wall behind the speakers) to the speaker's baffle (the part of the enclosure that the woofer & tweeter are mounted to) and multiply by 2. Move your speakers out to that distance and listen for a 1/2 hour AT LEAST. Then toe-in or out both speakers listening to simple/familiar acoustic music with a centralized voice. If the image is too sharp or solid (compared with other instruments/vocals on the soundstage) then you've toed-in too much. If the center image is fuzzy and dull then apply more toe-in. The more symmetrical the speakers are with each other the more cohesive/realistic they'll sound. This technique will also help the speakers to "disappear" sonically - if not decoratively. You may be thinking "Yeah, but my wife isn't going agree to that." Well, most of the rest of us have those too, that's why we just put a piece of tape on the floor (to mark the spots) for the times we aren't listening to tunes - or better yet, a listening room. ------>Have fun!!! :)

bruce30 February 22, 2006 05:25

I finally went for it and purchased a Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD player, hooked it up yesterday, and I have to say I don't hear a difference between my old Cambridge Audio D300se and the MF. I love the way it looks, and I can use the same remote that I use for my preamp, but is this worth the extra money? I mean, my cambridge is a $250 dollar unit originally, and the MF is $1600 originally. Shouldn't I hear an imediate difference? Maybe it's the way that I am comparing the two. I plug them both into my MF3.2 preamp, one through the cd input the other through the tuner input. I gave every advantage to the MF player (i.e. I gave it the better interconnects, I gave it the CD input on my preamp even though this should have no bearing on the sound, I gave it the better power cord, and I gave it the more solid surface to sit on). I then play identical cd's, switching back and forth during playback to see if I can hear differences. This method should give me the best chance of hearing a difference since there is no time lag to switch to the next player. I don't understand it. Either my comparison method is flawed, or I just became a "bits is bits" person overnight.

sksfreund February 21, 2006 22:44

I don't think there is any such thing as "sin" when it comes to audio/music - choice is totally up to the person putting together their system according to their needs and their ears. Unfortunately, some people who consider themselves audiophiles seem to feel compelled to look down their noses at others when they don't agree with the choices made.

Since I last posted in this thread, I have separated out my 2-channel system from my HT system - they still share the same space but no longer share the same speakers or sources. I bought a used Denon 3910 DVD/SACD/DVD-A player from another Audiogon member for my HT system and love it. The 3910 is a bit out of your price range but other Denons might be a good fit for you. Also, for comparatively very little money you might consider the Oppo DV971 - it has gotten very good reviews and at only approx $200 you might be able to afford the CD player you want, too! http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/oppoDV971Hdvdplayer1.php
I like having a separate redbook CD player, but quite understand making compromises until the money is available.

Holly

oakiris January 22, 2006 16:20

Ok, I feel like I am comitting some kind of audiophile sin by even asking this, but I am considering replacing my dvd player now also, and was wondering if anyone knew of a cd/dvd player that would be worthy of my system that I might be able to find under 1200 dollars or so. So far I have looked at the Marantz line with great intrigue (i.e. dv7600, 8400, and 9500)and would love to hear anyone's input. You can find many of these on the internet at great discounts right now. Basically this is where I stand: I really want to get the A3.2 CD player I have been talking about in this thread, but if I can have the same or better success with a dvd capable machine, I figure I should kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Although I would probably still try to find a used A3.2 somewhere down the road. So, tell me what you think. I look forward to hearing responses, as long as no one tries to condemn me for my audiophile sins.

sksfreund January 21, 2006 05:35

Thanks for the suggestions Oakiris! Just to let you know, I have even further reduced my list (which I now realize was kind of lengthy before) to just the Musical Fidelity A3.2cr or the jolida. If for some strange reason I come across enough money to purchase the A5 it will be on the top of my list, but other than those, that is my list. It will probably be a while before I purchase any of these though.

sksfreund October 23, 2005 21:42

I had some fun yesterday going to various audio shops just to listen. One of the units I heard was the Musical Fidelity A5. I thought it sounded very nice indeed. I know it is a bit pricey, but it has tubes! Anyway, there is one for sale here on Audiogon - http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1134150664
and it is about $700 less than retail price. That may still be over your budget, but it is something to consider.

I am seriously thinking about replacing my Rotel 1072 player with the A5 (and replacing my Rotel power amp with a MF A5 too) but don't have the $$ right now, or I would jump on the above for sale item!

Since your system is based on Musical Fidelity, and you like the sonic signature of this brand, I would say you should stick with Musical Fidelity. :-)

Good luck with your decision!

Holly

oakiris October 23, 2005 15:56

I vote for the Rega Planet.

bruce30 October 16, 2005 23:52

I don't like to berate equipment but I owned an Audio Refinement CD Complete Aplha briefly (the only player on your list I've owned). I say briefly because I much preferred my NAD C541i to the Complete. I expected an improvement but it seemed lifeless to me. The odd thing is I had also owned the Complete integrated and was very favorably impressed with the amp. Selling it was one of those small mistakes we all make at some point.

timrhu October 09, 2005 17:17

Ok, I hate to do this because it seems so desperate, but I am going to list the final few CD players that I have narrowed it down to. Some I have had the ability to hear, some I haven't. Before I list them let me lay out what I want from a new player. First of all, the new player can't do ANYTHING worse than what my D300se can do, which from what I have heard isn't going to be too hard. Aside from that, I am a sucker for detail retrieval. If a player can retrieve detail, yet lacks in other departments, I may tend to forget about those things it doesn't do so well with. Next, I have never had a very large soundstage with "pinpoint imaging", so if the player could excell at that, that would be rad. (yes, I said rad) Finally, a tad more bass wouldn't hurt. Not muddy bass though. Ok, so here is my list. Tell me what you think:(these are kind of in order of how likely I am to get them, but not really)

-Jolida JD100

-Musical Fidelity A3.2cr(or 3.5 if I can get one used for a good price and I have the funds)

-Rega Planet 2000 (or jupiter used)

-Any Arcam around $1000 new or used (to many to name)

-Audio Refinement CD Complete Alpha

I would consider things above my price point if you guys think that the ones on my list aren't up to par, but that would probably mean years of saving up as opposed to just months(i.e. I have heard great things about some Cary players, Musical fidelity A5 CD, etc., but those are up there in price)
Thanks!

sksfreund October 09, 2005 06:44

System edited: Minor changes, but I took off the foam surrounds on the bottom of my speaker stands and added some new bolts to mount the spikes and put some neoprene washers in between the spikes and the bottom plate. MUCH more sturdy and looks a LOT better (it looked pretty tacky before). They used to have a little wobble in them, but not anymore. Also, I put a little thread tape on the threads of the adjustable spike tips. This really helped to eliminate the small amount of looseness that was still present. Also, while rapping on my speaker stands to test stability, I noticed a rattling noise coming from the rear of my left speaker. I lifted the speaker binding post plate off and to my suprise a wire coil on the crossover was loose. I promptly reglued it in place and replaced the plate. Finally, I found some spare spikes lying around and put three of them under my TT. I was having some major vibration problems (if I tapped on the shelf that my TT was on, the woofers on my speakers would go CRAZY) and the spikes helped some. Not perfect, but a fun tweak to try.

sksfreund September 14, 2005 03:40

Mostly not so fond though, right? Yeah, moving around to so many different kinds of houses really makes it hard to have a "perfect set-up" but I do ok finding the best place for my system in every house we move into. The thing is, without being able to dedicate an entire room to music listening, I often have to comprimise. That's the only reason you see the T.V., Tivo, and DVD player in my system pictures. It's also the reason that I don't want to get a better turntable right now. The way it is, my MMF 2.1 gets beat up every time we move, and then I have to readjust everything. Still, an MMF-7 or a VPI Scout are in the plans for me. But dispite all my complaining, I fair pretty well, and I love my system. I think it sounds great and I hate to admit it, but the only reason I will upgrade is because I know that better equipment exists, not because I am not satisfied with what I have.

sksfreund September 12, 2005 04:59

So you are in the military. The first time I checked your thread I noticed the flooring, it must be base housung. I'm retired Air Force and lived in several military housing units during my career. Brings back many fond and some not so fond memories. Thanks.

timrhu September 05, 2005 13:38

If it were only that easy. I am military, so my housing options are pretty limited. Also, I have a wife and kids, so certain things have to stay put. Trust me, if I had the money for a plasma tv, I would own one. In Fact, everything you mentioned is in the works sometime in the future. I didn't mind your irrate tone, in fact sometimes I get that way when I realize the limitations being placed on my stereo setup.

sksfreund September 05, 2005 06:23

For God's Sake...get an LCD or Plasma to hang on the wall. That clunky tv is mutilating your center image and undoubtedly ruining the bass clarity/definition. You might also consider (after you buy-or remove altogether-the tv) spending some money on a decent equipment rack. To see if I'm exaggerating you should try 1) moving all the gear to the floor. 2) take the television set and OUT of the room- completely. 3) move the speakers out and AWAY from the walls. 4) Listen and be AMAZED at just how bad it was before. Sorry for my "slightly irrate" tone but a stereo (like yours) is a terrible thing to waste! Best of Regards, Bruce30

bruce30 September 01, 2005 08:24

I think so. I've heard it a couple times and definitely prefer it to the cambridge, plus it get's some great reviews and keeps a good resale price. The only reason I'd pause is if I was going for something like 3x the price, and then I'd want to save some scratch. I say go for it.

mimberman August 22, 2005 20:32

I just found a used Arcam cd 72t for a great price. Would it be a worth while improvement over the Cambridge d300se?

sksfreund August 22, 2005 05:09

I have used both the signal cable pwr cord and have replaced it with the vh flavor 4 with furu plugs. And while i thought the signal cable was a vast improvement over stock with great low end. I'd have to say WOW with the VH cord. Music from bottom to top of spectrum that i never heard before.
I'm running a musical fidelity 3.2 int also. into Dynaudio 52se monitors. I have the signal cable power cords now on my modd'd Kenwood Kt7500 tuner and the digital on my jolida jd100. But when moneys available with be going all VH.
But as we know all ears hear diff.

pooldaze August 01, 2005 00:05

I forgot to mention, I was also looking at getting a Tripp Lite surge protector, probably the ISOBAR6 (http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=105). Was wondering if anyone could give me any info on if this is a worth while purchase. They can be found for very cheap, and I have read some articles saying they are a good idea.

sksfreund June 28, 2005 21:11

How about signal cable PC's? I have heard nothing bad about them, only good, and they are definitely in my price range. (No one in my family could justify buying me a 200 dollar PC as a gift, it just wouldn't happen) Will PC's even make that big of a difference with the MF's choke regulation? I already have a pretty black background, but is there more to be done?

sksfreund June 28, 2005 20:19