Electrostat Heaven-Getting 2 Tubes soon?

Hi, very nice system--very attractive room. I was, however, wondering about the windows: don't these give you problems--I would expect even worse ones with bipolar speakers like MLs? You say you have spent a great deal of time on your room design--and from your pics I do not doubt it--but this seems like it might cause problems anyway. Wondering about your thoughts. Thanks, Sol

phatboy January 22, 2005 03:59

O.K. Tomhifi found something he likes better then Krell. I only recommend useing Krell Mono Blocks. I agree with Tom in the respect. If you look into Krell only look into there Mono MCX series. You will not be disapointed. You may get disapointed in there price though. They start at $12,500 for the FPB350MCX. Good Luck. Previous I have owned Rotel and Carver and Sony. Many years ago.

radrog January 21, 2005 21:42

Hi, I have owned ML, Quest Zs and Re Quests. With the Quest Z set up I powered them with a Krell KSA 100S through my Wadia 860. A friend suggested trying his Conrad Johnson 11A. Even though it was underpowered with the 11A I realized almost immediately that the Krell was done. I purchased the CJ Premier 12 monoblocks and never looked back. The Krell was to grainy to say the least. Now I'm searching for a used pair of ML, Ascent i to run in the same system. Keep it simple and enjoy the music, not the gear!

tomhifi January 21, 2005 01:49

Owner

Thanks for the info Roger. What other amps did you own before the Krell's?

trackmagic January 20, 2005 13:16

I own Martin Logan and use Krell and it is a perfect match. Just keep in mind one thing. IT TAKES ALONG TIME FOR KRELL TO BREAK IN. It is very musical when they break in. You will be dissapointed at first. In my mind one of the best companies in the world. I use a Marantz SA-14 v.2 for my two channel listening and is a wanderful match. Let me know how thing work out.

Roger

radrog January 20, 2005 00:37

Owner

Objective1:

Thanks for the input. I want to bring a "room tuner" in but need to wait a little since I blew the budget already with the wife. The room is set to help make their job easier when they come in, hopefully at least.

I will most likely look for used stuff for that area on this site.

Power cables. I basically used the Belden wire star quad power wire, then from Lowe's you can get plastic tubing used for water, slide the cable inside the tube, fits pretty snugly, then used a ground spiraled around the plastic tube with some quick disconnect spades to connect and disconnect the gounds to see if you can lower the 40 hz hum. I got the cable kits from Ernie's Power cables. I used hospital grade plugs. It was VERY easy to do and the look super cool.

I think I am going to go with Krell or Pass Lab amps at this point instead of tubes. Thanks for your thoughts.

Take care,

JWP

trackmagic January 17, 2005 20:20

Cool system... I have a similar setup (ReQuests, TheaterI, Scripts, Descent).. but have been going through some significant tuning...

Don't spend another $ on equipment before working with a room tuner on your acoustics. It'll be the best $'s you spend. I had a levinson 334 driving hte front two channels and a BPA3 driving the center and rears.. Sounded pretty good...but when the movie tracks were loud..you could tell the sound was pretty incoherent. The first thing i did was put traps in every corner.. that made a huge difference in the bottom end.. very little bloom. I've just finished working a round of planks and 4'x5' panels on the empty walls. (i also have a carpeted floor over a subfloor and concrete) ..Now i hear some hint of spatiousness... The next thing will be to tackle the ceiling..and fine tune the walls. So far i have about 2400$ in treatments... all used... but all very functional.

That would be my advice for the next step..

btw... which power cable receipe are you using? I was about to go that route..based on an 83803 belden cable.

..and...a note about amps.. i just sold my ML 334 to get a plinius (SA-250 MkIV) i have run the reQuests on an SA-102...and it does sound more open than the 334. To compare the overall dynamics..i'd say they were pretty close, with the levinson slightly outshining the plinius (but at almost twice the retail). If you are considering Krell, stick with the earlier non c or cx stuff. Way too bright for our ML's.

objective1 January 16, 2005 21:17

Owner

TO: Trackmagic

You have a fantastic set-up. You have gone to pains to set up the room itself. But, I have one question: Why are your front speakers and center channel speaker set up in front of a whole wall of windows? Glass is perhaps the worst reflector there is. Best wishes, Leo
============================
FROM: Esidekid (a member)

Esidekid:
Great observation! It was thought out, the actual blinds act as filters of the sound waves. They let most of the sound through, it reflects off the window and hits the blinds, again defused reflected or released from the window area. It was thought through because I loved the windows in the room.

That is it, your thoughts?

Jeremy

trackmagic January 14, 2005 20:18

Owner

:[email protected]: Thanks for info! Two quick question:

1. Which ML's do you have?
2. What other type amps have you owned to give me a reference point of what you came from to these amps.

Take care,

Jeremy

trackmagic January 14, 2005 13:52

I am running a similar system with the Martin Logans but using an EAD Theatermaster and EAD power amps ( 400 wts per channel )with Cardas cables. Sounds great.This may help in your power decision

hogtown January 13, 2005 22:25

Owner

Thanks for the info Mark! Also, thank you for the new Martin Logan web site!

Take care,

JWP

trackmagic January 11, 2005 12:56

Great system (and room setup)!

I have ML ReQuest's with an Ayre K1-x pre-amp and Gamut D200 MKII. Amplification is just enough! I have shopped and listened to Martin Logan's for some time, and liked the sound best from tube amplification. You can't go wrong there. I have not enjoyed many of the solid state amps that I have heard driving Logan's. Bryston and Pass were particurly offensive to me.

I was very disappointed with the combination that I purchased (very fast & lean), until I replaced the capacitors in the crossovers with TRT DynamiCaps. Now it is very close to the tube sound I recall (smooth and full). You can find information to perform this modifiction at: http://67.19.167.226/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=126

It is amazing how much improvement can be had from a simple modifiction, yet manufacturer's can not afford to incorporate this standard in their designs.

I won't be shopping for tube amps soon.

Logan's can be very revealing, and I have come to realize that it is time to upgrade my CD player. I am still enjoying the beautiful sounds from my turntable.

Many joyfull sessions!

Mark

duffydawg January 11, 2005 04:21

Owner

Thanks Jon! I have been working on this for quite some time and look to improve it over the years!

Take care,

Jeremy

trackmagic November 08, 2004 17:34

Trackmagic -
I don't have the experience or the knowledge of some of you other guys, being a college student, but. I have Infinity Kappa 600s front, and they are biwireable. I have been dying to add a decent tube amp for my highs, I have a Rotel RMB 1075 pushing those and my Kappa 400 surrounds and Entra center (only use multi-channel for DVD's, only run SACD in stereo.)
I have heard absolutely wonderful things about the particular CJ ACT-2 mentioned by Lightworks.
Your system is essentially what I am working towards my doctorate to buy, speakerwise. I cannot imagine what my Harnancourt SACD of Mozart's Requiem would sound like in your space. Im absolutely green with envy.
I hope you get years of great sound from your setup.

Cheers.

Jon Brown

breitlingdj November 05, 2004 21:37

Owner

David,

Thanks, I am going to do some research on them now.

Take care,

Jeremy

trackmagic November 05, 2004 14:39

You really should try to hear the Spectral amps if you can. I am a classical musician, and worked at a high end shop for a year. I generally prefer tube gear, but if I had to go solid state I would go with Spectral. At the dealership we also sold Levinson, Theta, Classe, and Halcro, but the Spectral was clearly better than any of these. Just my $0.02.

David

hornblower November 05, 2004 04:09

Jeremy,

I'm glad I could offer something of value! The only thing I would add is that piano may not be the end-all test. You may want to do the same with a select group of horns, drums, bass, etc. Acoustic double basses could be the next serious challenge to both speakers and the amps. The speed and power required to accurately reproduce the sound of the strings when plucked can be deceiving. Think of it as if you are watching an old set of peak meters while listening to a recording. The instruments that draw the power will be the ones you want to test.

Again, good luck with your testing / setup.

Happy listening.

Rgds,
Joe

lightworks November 03, 2004 15:10

Owner

Lightworks:

No the screen is not transparent but it sits right above the center channel. I have done some testing and even the acoustically transparent screens reduce some of the high frequency effectiveness of the speaker. Great idea with the piano as well! I am an audio engineer for our church and never thought of it that way. I have done that in the past with some mic-ing and EQ'ing. That is truly a good idea.

Dadeyo44:

I agree with your idea on the sun coming in the windows, I am going to have them tinted to reduce the sun damage. Thank you for the idea!

Take care,

Jeremy

trackmagic November 03, 2004 12:56

A beautiful system in a gorgeous room to be sure. But, if I may make an observation based on past experience, the speakers will be short lived standing in front of those windows. I used a fabulous set of Magnapans in a similar situation only to have the heat from the nearest window bake the fragile film in the speakers down to the point of ruin. A year into use they were relegated to the dump. May I suggest either covering the windows completely or a box style (hence protected from the UV rays) speaker? Best of luck in all regards.

dadeyo44 November 03, 2004 03:57

Trackmagic,

Almost forgot to ask you -- is your screen "acoustically transparent"? Or do you keep it that height when you watch movies, etc.?

If not, have you considered one? Movie dialogue will be that much more realistic if you perceive it to come right out of the screen. Just a thought.

Rgds,

lightworks November 03, 2004 01:10

Trackmagic,

I'm sorry, but the hi-end dealers near me do not carry Pass Labs, so I can't really comment on those amps. I sometimes wonder what I'm missing when I read about equipment I can't hear for myself, but that's another topic for another day.

However, I've experienced Krell amps via Dyne Audio, Wilsons, and of course, the B&W's. You won't be disappointed if you try them, especially at a dealer first. I'm not guaranteeing that they'll be your number one choice, but they're definitely worth a listen.

Also, check out their specs on their web site as a starting point of reference. Their mono blocks will easily double and quadruple the current (and thus WPC) down to 2 ohms without issue. And from listening, they do it with authority, speed, control, tightness, etc. And from what I could tell, they only push what you feed them. Also, if I'm not mistaken, S/N ratings on the standard monoblocks are 121 dB "A" rated. I believe the reference mono's ratings are even higher.

But enough about specs. It all comes down to what you hear, and hopefully don't hear in terms of low level noise as you have stated. I think you'll find that low level noise is much more attributable to inferior recordings / mic-ing techniques than the top end equipment reproducing it. When I listen for comparison, I take the same material from store to store, setup to setup. The source material includes some MoFi Sound Labs cds / sacds, some Sheffield Lab source material, etc. Source material that I can count on being done right during the recording phase to eliminate doubt in what I'm hearing. And the material is primarily acoustic instrument source material. Why complicate an instrument's sound with electronics that alter the sound of the instrument in the first place? There's no point of reference with electronic instruments in an open-ended listening test unless you personnally own, can reproduce the identical settings, and can play said instrument.

Perhaps this is an example of a real test for you. Go to a store where they sell pianos. If you don't play, have the salesman play for you. Something with soft passages. You won't hear any low level noise because it isn't there in the first place. Memorize the sound. Then go to the audio store, and listen to more piano. Do not listen to anything musical in between stores. If the system reproduces exactly what you heard in the piano store, you have found what you want. Make sense? I realize it's not always that cut and dry, but you have to start somewhere.

In regard to your comment on the ML speakers, yes, they warrant a listen at a minimum. There is definitely something magical about electrostats that cannot be denied. Brings back memories of my first listen to this type of speaker 20 years ago. You never forget something like that. The only way I can describe it is the "openness" of the sound stage that they create. Perhaps you could say their sound is more "vertical", ie. -- if you chose a point on the vertical axis and allowed the sound to disperse horizontally around that point on that axis, that's what you'd have. Like a pebble dropped into a shallow pool with waves that disperse around that single point. Simply amazing that it can be reproduced in such a way.

Nonetheless, I don't know if my rambling has helped you or not in your search for an amp(s). Good luck in your quest for the amp that will do your speakers justice. When you find it, let me know what you settle on so I can go check it out, too.

Best Regards,

lightworks November 03, 2004 01:05

Owner

Lightworks:

Thanks for the feedback! Your system to be sounds very good to me, have you ever listened to Martin Logans? If not, you may want to take a seat and a favorite CD and spend a little time. However, the B and W's a great as well.

I am now somewhat leaning towards the Pass Labs 600x mono blocks. Why do you suggest the Krell amps? What are your thoughts of them over the Pass Labs? I hate static noise, so the noise floor on the Pass amps seems to be very low.

Any thoughts?

trackmagic November 02, 2004 22:31

Hello Trackmagic.

You have a system which not only looks good, but probably sounds great, too.

In my limited opinion and knowledge on the amps, I too, would suggest using a tube preamp with SS power amp, just as Sogood51 has suggested above. I would tend to lean toward Krell on the SS side as I know they can handle really low impedence and they'll still drive you into tomorrow.

I am currently in the process of building my home theater / audio room, and am planning as follows:

1) Speakers -- B&W Nautilus 802s for front mains, HTM1 center, and N805s or SCM1s for rears. (front mains and center have been acquired, building funds for the rears).

2) Amps -- starting with a Krell HTS 7.1 and TAS (5 x 200 wpc).

3) Because 2 channel is just as important as multi-channel, and because the HTS 7.1 has 2 channel bypass, am hoping to add a Conrad Johnson ART 2 (tube preamp) if one can be found. If you are familiar with CJ, this amp is no longer in production, but occasionally you'll see one here from time to time. I'm hoping this arrangement will give me the balance / compromise of great 2 channel with SS push on the power side of things.

4) If money (and spouse) permit, add some Krell mono blocks on the front mains and dedicate the TAS for the surrounds.

Thanks for considering my comments. I welcome any feedback you may have on the amps or on my rough plans for my system.

lightworks November 02, 2004 17:20

Owner

System edited: Thank you all for the feedback. As requested, I have listed the SPECS for the ML Prodigy's if you click on the sub catagory of the speaker itself you will see the details.

trackmagic November 01, 2004 15:02

ml is an extremely finicky speaker as you know. biamping is the way to go if you can afford it. Just because you decide to bi amp doesn't mean you must go tubes on top ss on bottom.the sweetnes of tubes is in the midrange. Ideally vintage krell circa early 1990's on bottom and vtl ichoban on top. In fact you may try the vtl full range. you may also try atma spere ma1's otls on top. the prodigy's are lightening fast. You give up some of that speed when you switch to tubes. Try rowland research. sweet on top and lightening fast and can run full range.
there is a wicked impedance curb on the ml that drops to 1.5 ohms. this doesn't seem to bother the amps in the price range you are considering.
Having said all that my personal choice cj premier 140.

gregadd October 29, 2004 20:59

Displaying posts 51 - 75 of 80 in total

Electrostat Heaven-Getting 2 Tubes soon?

Description

Components Toggle details

Martin Logan Prodigy

Martin Logan Theater

Martin Logan Script

Parasound HALO C-2

Blanaced Power Technologies BPT-3.5

Mitsubishi HC3000U DLP

Adcom GFA-555 mkII

Jamo SW-400e

Marinco Clear

Adcom GFA-2535L

Belden Belden Star Quad red E83754

Watt Gate ICE-Clear

Adcom GFA-5200

Panamax Max 1000+

Adcom GCD-600

Sony DVD PlayerDVP-NS90V

Monster Cable M 2.4's

Ultralink Custom Matrix MVR

Ultralink Custom Ultima XLR42

Sony DRN XMO 1MK2 XM Radio receiver

Da-lite Cosmopolitan

Dish 411 HD Receiver Dish 411 HD

Ultralink Custom - Ultralink Audiophile MK II

Ultralink Custom Matrix MX

UltraLink Pro Platnium 26ft

Lumar 1 CL Black

Ultralink CCS-1M

Jamo JCB -4

Mitsubishi VCR

Jamo 6.5 K4

Comments 80

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Electrostat Heaven-Getting 2 Tubes soon?

Description

Components Toggle details

Martin Logan Prodigy

Martin Logan Theater

Martin Logan Script

Parasound HALO C-2

Blanaced Power Technologies BPT-3.5

Mitsubishi HC3000U DLP

Adcom GFA-555 mkII

Jamo SW-400e

Marinco Clear

Adcom GFA-2535L

Belden Belden Star Quad red E83754

Watt Gate ICE-Clear

Adcom GFA-5200

Panamax Max 1000+

Adcom GCD-600

Sony DVD PlayerDVP-NS90V

Monster Cable M 2.4's

Ultralink Custom Matrix MVR

Ultralink Custom Ultima XLR42

Sony DRN  XMO 1MK2 XM Radio receiver

Da-lite Cosmopolitan

Dish 411 HD Receiver Dish 411 HD

Ultralink Custom - Ultralink Audiophile MK II

Ultralink Custom  Matrix MX

UltraLink Pro Platnium 26ft

Lumar 1 CL Black

Ultralink CCS-1M

Jamo JCB -4

Mitsubishi VCR

Jamo 6.5 K4

Comments 80

Mitsubishi HC3000U DLP

Sony DRN XMO 1MK2 XM Radio receiver

Ultralink Custom Matrix MX