HP of tas had claimed that solid state and dynamic speakers had surpassed tubes and planars.

I've could have told you that!!!

***

psychicanimal November 07, 2004 21:23

Gregadd, thank you sincerely for your comments. I have not ruled out the possibility of Jeff Rowlands new amps or the Classe. Both are excellent and as you say, transistors have come a long way.

Nrchy, I would love to have you visit again! I must concentrate on making this right and the next step is getting new cable and speakers broken in and determining what amplifiers the Dali's like.

If your headed this way you must come by. If your flying in I will come get you at the airport.

albertporter November 07, 2004 20:09

Albert, I can see the fireplace now. I was wondering what it looked like from the sofa! I might have to make another trip to Dallas.

You will have to keep us posted when the rest of the changes fall into place. Will it sound as good as it did in spring?

nrchy November 07, 2004 18:29

I'm a tube and planar speaker guy myself. If you have looked at a square wave from solid stae versus tubes there is no comaprison(transient response). I've made serious compromises for econmic reasons. Somethnig you apaprently don't have to do.
The question is how are you going to get all the way home. I've heard some megabuck systems. All were at shows or at stores. I never listened long enough to get thier true measure. Obviolsy you have the adavatage over me there.
HP of tas had claimed that solid state and dynamic speakers had surpassed tubes and planars. Not so sure about that. Bermiester may be something you want to examine. Any way it looks like you have enough to keep busy. Have fun.

gregadd November 07, 2004 13:12

I appreciate your response and agree there are people who prefer the sound you are describing. I have owned both solid state and tube preamplifiers and prefer Aesthetix preamp and phono over everything ever built.

If you have not heard these you cannot imagine the level of detail and resolution they offer. The easiest thing to criticize about them would be their suggested retail price and the cost of re tubing all the glass with NOS Telefunkens.

Regardless of what each of us choose, we compromise. With every piece of equipment there are limitations and every time we make a choice, we do so in balance with our taste and the other pieces of equipment in the system.

I don't disagree that solid state has the potential for sharp transients (as you stated) but there is a natural bloom, particularly on acoustical instruments that tubes often get "right" when transistors are busy getting the slam correct.

I may wind up with solid state for all four amps, running the top and bottom, who knows? I am open minded and willing to try but remain optimistic about tubes ability to reach me emotionally.

albertporter November 07, 2004 04:18

what i am saying is that despite the magic of tubes which i love and own, there is no substitute for solid state at the frequebcy extremes. If yuo are going all out you have to deal with that. For instance sharp tranisents. tubes just can't compete. this usually means bi amping tubes, on top and solid state on bottom. It also means a solid state preamp.
It's something to think about!

gregadd November 07, 2004 01:03

Eldartford, hiring an orchestra would be great sound but what about all the Jazz artists I listen to?

Many of my all time favorites are listening to the creators "ultimate system" as they have passed on.

Gregadd, not sure if your suggesting I change my amps or preamp, but the VTL 750 has outstanding bass. Not as tight as solid state, but huge impact, bloom and reserve that goes on forever.

For the time being I am trying to keep the voicing and tone of the four amplifiers similar so they are believable top to bottom. That can be particularly hard to do with radically different designs such as solid state and triode tube.

There are not a lot of people with Megalines and even fewer have experimented with all the tube and transistor amp possibilities, so I am kind of on my own.

For upcoming testing, (I own): Pair of mono 60 watt (w/100 watt power supply) Atma-Sphere OTL's, pair of mono Air Tight ATM-3, two stereo Dynaco 70's and pair of mono VTL 750.

Also possible to borrow from guys in my group: Pair of mono Wolcott Presence, pair of mono VTL 750, pair of mono VTL MB-125, and a BAT VK-75se.

I have requested two pair of Cary CAD-211 Anniversary edition as review samples. Each mono block uses 6SL7 for an input tube, EL34 and two 300 B driving two 845. Could be really magic.

Will have to wait and see if that happens.

albertporter November 06, 2004 23:23

Jond,

ATM-3 are, Ultralinear 110 watts (8 Ohms) and Triode 55 watts (8 Ohms). Output tubes are EL34 (6CA7) and use 6 per channel. Total Harmonic Distortion < .08% at 1 watt RMS, 1kHz. < 1.0% at 110 watt RMS, 1kHz.

Input tubes are 12AX7 and 12AU7, easy to swap and I have tons of each as NOS.

One of the guys in my group had a pair of ATM-3 last year and I loved the sound. Similar to Wolcotts that I used for so many years but maybe even a bit smoother. Certainly the point to point wire and Tamura transformers are a huge plus.

albertporter November 06, 2004 22:03

Albertporter...I am impressed. But why didn't you just hire the orchestra to play at your place? Wouldn't it be cheaper?

eldartford November 06, 2004 14:35

Albert,
Cogratulations on the new amps! I used to own an Air Tight ATM-1 stereo amp and it was a great little amp, those ATM-3's should rock. There's just something about those Tamura transformers, a relaxing quality to the sound, that's just fantastic. Just curious what are the specs on those guys?

jond November 06, 2004 14:03

since we are all living vicariously through your system. Vintage Krell circa late 80's they had a for box preamp and krell 400 amp, I think. Used with a Janis w-1. It could make the room breathe(pulse in and out). It just wasn't the same with a tube preamp. you wont get that kind of bass from vtl.

gregadd November 06, 2004 13:58

Unfortunately I don't have a conclusion yet. The Soundlabs were sounding the best ever when I packed them up and shipped them to the new owner. I prefer to not go into why I sold them but will say they were unbelievable when working correctly.

The Dali Megaline is showing signs of filling the void the Soundlabs left. I hear signs of resolution in the Dali ribbon, equal and better in some ways to my Soundlabs. That's saying a lot because the electrostatic highs on the Soundlab was pretty much perfect.

I should know more next week when my new amps arrive, having just bought Air Tight ATM-3 mono blocks (here at Audiogon). I plan on driving the ribbons with these and the woofers with my VTL 750's.

This should show off their ability, although I must buffer results with the factory warning that 500 hours are required to break in the woofers. Until then the lowest octaves will not be showing their stuff.

albertporter November 06, 2004 02:19

Hello Mr. Albert,

You moved from first class electrostates to first class cone speakers.

Would you like to share the experience? Why did you change and how do you descibe each of them?

Thanks

haroon November 05, 2004 08:01

Albert is approaching near field listening...subliminally!

psychicanimal October 31, 2004 18:05

A spectacular room & system! Like commercials on TV advertising fine prepared restaurant meals, tasting is better than seeing! In this case, hearing is better than looking. Maybe you could charge admission! A thing of beauty is a joy forever!

phd October 31, 2004 17:44

Francisco, I borrowed a DVD player that plays CDR's and now I am able to run the Purist Audio break in disc. I still plan on buying some additional CD's and appreciate your suggestion and link to TNT.

albertporter October 31, 2004 02:59

Hey Albert, did you get the *recommended* CD? It's a very serious tool, let me tell you...

psychicanimal October 30, 2004 23:41

Good question Gregadd. I suspect the original speaker designs are run for a considerable amount of time not only to test but reveal any weakness or warranty issues.

Along the way I would assume the "big guys" like B&W, Wilson, Dynaudio and Dali set aside a random pair of speakers now and again, assuring the performance is still to specification. I don't have proof of this but I seldom hear a pair of these high quality speakers that disappoint.

albertporter October 29, 2004 01:58

Eric, It goes without saying that you are always welcome. It will be interesting to see what you think about the differences between Soundlabs and the Dali's.

If the amps I've requested arrive by then, I think you will be surprised.

albertporter October 28, 2004 21:31

given the price of most all out speaker design there is no excuse for not having a signififcant run in at the factory. How can they make releible measurements?

gregadd October 28, 2004 21:05

Albert!

I am really wishing I was back in Dallas, watching and listening to all the changes you are making to your system. Having heard first hand how drastic a difference break-in and warm-up can make in a system as resolving as yours, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you... If it's any consolation, the Dali's look magnificent in your living room.

Things are going well in Miami, but it is a drag not having an audio system or a great group of people with whom I can listen to music and drink scotch. I'm planning to visit Dallas again sometime during the holidays, and would love to come by for a visit and a listen. I'll be in touch!

Best wishes,
Eric

ewha October 28, 2004 16:22

Greg I wish it were all in my mind, a hot bath would be much easier and certainly a lot quicker.

I have a music group of between eleven and fifteen members and some come no more often that once every two months. Some come every week. When EVERYONE claims to hear the same results, even when there is no way to compare notes, I have to believe that my ears are not fooling me.

One member of my group purchased Kharma Exquisite 1D (the best with Diamond tweeter), eight months ago. When they arrived the sound was congested and the drivers sounded like the crossover was at the wrong points. Everyone in our group visited his home over a period of about five months and there was absolutely NO bass.

Word was that about 500 hours the bass would show up and all would be well. We passed the 500 hour mark and on to 650 (plus) and still NO bass. The owner having spent the larger portion of 100K was on the phone to the distributor and the factory in Holland.

They sent us a spectrum analyzer and it too showed no bass.

Then mysteriously, week before last, at about 800 hours we had so much bass the speaker had to be moved to another spot in the room. The analyzer showed the increase so this is not a mind trick.

The speakers took almost seven months, the exact amount of time my Cryo treated Soundlab Ultimates required.

I was about to pull the plug on mine when they finally came into their own. I was so certain that something was wrong I ordered a completely new set of back plates to test against my own.

I honestly believe that the better the speaker, the worse it sounds when new, especially if cryogenics are involved. Wondering if there was a correlation, we called GTT audio and discovered the Kharma is COMPLETELY cryo treated at the factory, crossover and all.

This is extremely frustrating. After all the hard work and money we expect some instant gratification. In high end audio it seldom works that way and probably why sound at all these shows I've been covering is so BAD.

albertporter October 28, 2004 01:32

we all know componets have a subsantial breakin period. there is also a human breakin period. Harvey Rosenberg of NYAL fame, god bless his soul, suggested a hot bath and a massage, no restrictive clothing. One glass of wine, slowly imbibed.

gregadd October 27, 2004 19:04

Zaiks,

The VTL 750 sounded marvelous with the Soundlabs, in fact as well they ever performed. The Ultimates present a difficult load and the extra juice helped, particularly on dynamic passages.

If I had unlimited funds and factory support for repair, I would choose them or the ARC REF 600 MK III.

The Dali are a true bi-amp design in that they require four identical amps in gain and overall personality. The (provided) crossover is dual mono and dual power supply, requiring four amps to even operate.

I don't doubt that four 750's would do the job, but certainly the ribbon tweeter (1200 HZ and up) does not require 600 watts nor would it be the ideal amp (transparency wise) for dipole ribbons. Add to this, email exchanges between myself and VTL were not encouraging as to the prospect of matching the 750 and other amps in their line.

This and other issues with the VTL factory has resulted in my decision to discontinue all further research of this project with their products.

Jond,

Thank you for the compliments. I worked hard to hide all the acoustical treatment in my room. The best room is not an "alter to hi fi", but rather a comfortable room that happens to have a hi fi system in it. You accomplished this and I hope I have as well.

Tonight the Dali's broke through to another level. They sounded good enough that I quit complaining the second half of the night. For those of you that have not listened with me, that is progress. I have almost zero patience during break in and I always forget how disappointed I am during that period.

albertporter October 27, 2004 05:44

Albert,
You were so kind to post about my system, when I saw yours I knew I had to return the favor. Wow! That about sums it up. Seriously, that is one of the most aesthetically pleasing marriages of a room and large speakers that I've ever seen. It looks super livable and I'm sure it sounds great. If you're still auditioning amps I can't recommend my Cary 300B Sigs enough. If four of those would be enough power you would be very pleased I'm sure. Anyway, enjoy the beautiful room and enjoy the amp search, and please keep us posted. Cheers!

jond October 26, 2004 18:45