Are you saying you prefer the older CJ amps to the newer ones?

gladstone December 02, 2011 10:20

Thanks Mike. Looking forward to hear your thoughts about the Tape Project 1/2" . Im familiar with their 1/4" tapes (subscriber of S1& S2).
Regards
Kostas

kkatsipanos December 01, 2011 15:16

Kostas,

i have made a few of my own 1/2" dubs from various sources just to play around. and i'm getting Series 3 from the Tape Project in 1/2" instead of 1/4". if i do any live recording in my room (which is possible) i will do it in 1/2".

there are really no 1/2" tapes out there to purchase other than thru the Tape Project; and those will cost you double what the standard 1/4" will cost.

mikelavigne December 01, 2011 00:28

David,

sure; i could be more politically correct and simply hide behind matters of taste, and that i've not heard everything in my system. maybe that would have been better.

however; i do feel that high power amps have their compromises, just like flea powered ones. and when you consider the very most low distortion and pure low powered SET's they offer an unfettered view of the music which no high powered amp can touch. they also have considerable limitations in power.

that viewpoint does not detract from the performance of the VAC450. simply it recognizes that there are compromises in any design of some sort. if you listened to the VAC450's and then the Found Music 2a3's in my system there would be strengths of each. neither would be better at everything. if that makes sense to you then that's all i'm saying.

you can suggest that the VAC450 is as low distortion and pure sounding as the best possible SET, but that is not the way things work.

the fact that my speakers use a separate amp for the subs certainly creates the potential of a compromise. but; in the case of bass linearity, it turns out that a digital amp is more linear "in the bass" than any other type. period. and the lack of character of the digital amp allows it to mimic the character of the main amp that feeds it and it can be perfectly matched to the drivers.

any speaker aspiring to full range needs a crossover for the bass drivers. and in every case that crossover can be many degrees of effective. no crossover is perfect. it helps if that crossover can be adjusted for the room it's in for optimal bass performance, like mine.

in the case of my speakers in my system i like that the bass seems seamless top to bottom. it sounds coherent. i'm happy with it. most visitors percieve it to be seamless, surprisingly so. frequently commented on. with extreme positive viewpoints. perfect? of course not.

i've not heard a passive speaker system anywhere with a single amp per channel even approach the level of bass performance i hear from my speakers. it might happen somewhere out there, but i'm skeptical. the balance of perfectly matching an amp to bass drivers capable of very low frequencies and articulation yet still offering the ultimate refinement for the mids and tweeters is a real challenge. this is if one has really has gone after ultimate full range performance.

i do have strong opinions developed over time which have guided my system building.....and i could be all wrong.

mikelavigne December 01, 2011 00:23

Charles1dad, I'm not trying to debate but you made some bold statements again on your last posting which need to be addressed due to others reading "it's your opinion which is okay but I don't agree"

Mike,

you gotta be kidding, obviously you have not heard these amps otherwise you would not be putting them in the same category as the other ones you have mentioned. Actually the ones above I've owned at one point except for the CJ's.

Always makes me wonder how can one write such bold statements when they haven't actually auditioned such in their own set-up, you can't.

Reading your last statement it's clear that you seem to have already made up your mind which is okay because as I wrote prior with your speakers I would not recommend such because you would not properly benefit from such.

Your remarks in relation to the Dart is absolutely misleading and I don't agree, you haven't even had the Vac 450's so pretty hard to suggest such but as long as you are happy then that's all that matters right?

Mike what you wrote in relation to your amps and circuitry absolutely makes no sense, your speakers do have 2- 15 inch woofers with their own 1000 watt power amp plus cross overs plus 2 mid drivers and a tweeter driver in each right?

Just my 2 cents worth.

dev November 30, 2011 21:52

hey Guys,

thanks for all the feedback. from each specific perspective i think i mostly agree with the comments....even thou they maybe appear to conflict a bit.

regarding my perspective on high powered tube amps, in particular the VAC 450 monos. i like high quality, high power tube amps. whether the big Audio Research 610T's, or VTL Wotan's, or Big CJ's (the older one's), big CAT's, or the VAC 450's....they are all special in their own ways. OTOH they also have this signature of listening 'thru' them to the music. this is not a bad thing. but it's a slight character which lays over the top of the signal. (when compared to the best of SET's).

i'm aware 'they' are there. always.

and frankly, i prefer the ss dart stereo amp to the 'big tube' approach. i'd say that my favorite tube amp over 3 watts i've heard so far is the Tenor 75 Watt OTL monos. which were unstable and granaded from time to time. but they disappeared like the dart ss amp does. it never seemed like i was having to listen thru them. it was just music. they did not have any softening or smoothing action. no slight golden hue.

the dart stereo amp has lower noise floor, and less signature on the sound than any of those 'big tube' amps. it's more extended on top and tighter and quicker than any of those amps. it is not quite as smooth, it does not have the degree of 'breath of life' that those big tube amps have. it does not quite bloom like those amps do. but overall i 'prefer' it. and in my system it does not matter that it is less powerful.

OTOH i perfectly understand how many might not agree with my view. and the point about the Evolution Acoustics MM3's not needing big power is very very important. i would never choose a speaker that needed 200+ watts of power simply because i don't want that much circuitry between me and the music. a personal choice.

if i were to have an extended demo in my system of the VAC450 monos might it change my mind? i doubt it, but one never knows until you try it.

mikelavigne November 30, 2011 20:33

Dev,
I just know kevin used all VAC electonics(CES 2010) and it was very good. That is`nt the point as I simply could appreciate mike`s comments concerning lower power SET vs high power PP amps.No I have`nt heard every amp out there and never will.
You are obviously pleased with your VAC amps and that`s good.All amplifiers have strengths and weaknesses including yours. The SETs would`nt come close to your amp`s power(450 watts) but due to their far fewer tube and parts count(much simpler)the usual benifit is less devices to alter the signal path and a purer less mechanical sound(with less power of course).

If the VAC 450 is the exception then it`s the first amp to avoid these trade offs.
I don`t want this to devolve into a 'my amp is better than yours' debate, it`s not that important. You are happy with your amp.that`s the bottom line.

charles1dad November 30, 2011 20:01

Hi Charles1dad,

I would have to disagree with remarks made in your first paragragh and third paragraph 1st line suggesting that SET amps excel over these specific Vac amps.

You say you heard them in Kevin's room at the CES, when and with what.

When I read individuals writing this or that it's your opinion which in the end is okay but when you have not actually had say the specific pce in your own system broken-in your comments really can't be taken all that serious as they are being presumptuous.

Speakers like Mike's MM3's would not fully benefit from these specific amps anyways due to the woofers being powered.

dev November 30, 2011 16:59

Hi Mike,
Do you use special Tapeproject tapes for your 1/2 inch Studer? Or is there another company who makes 1/2 inch pre-recorded material?
Regards
Kostas

kkatsipanos November 30, 2011 15:19

I think mike`s general impression of what SET amps excel at compared to large higher power push-pull amps is accurate. The absolute purity, profound ability to connect with the emotional core of music is unique.

The truth is 'all' amplifier types(regardless of power) have inherent compromises.I`ve heard the VAC 450 monoblock at CES in kevin`s room.
They are wonderful amps for what they are,large PP tubes(the perfect choice for some,no doubt) and certainly have more universal application than SET amps.

As fine as they are they won`t provide the same ultimate level of tone,purity and organic realism of the best SET designs IMHO. No Amplifier can do it all at the highest level across the audio spectrum, you choose your trade offs and live with them(happily I hope).

As already stated earlier, the Found Music amps need simply a smaller room and/or more efficient speakers.The big VAC could drive this space with the current speaker in place. Either amp type can yield superb results in a well thoughtout system.

charles1dad November 30, 2011 12:40

SET amps can be great but in general but they do have their strengths and weakness as Mike is finding out and in the end they just aren't for everyone, some being left with "if they could only do this or that"

The VAC Statement 450 mono's mentioned above, have any of you actually heard them in your own set-up?

Reading Mike you seem to already have made up your mind up without even doing such which really seems odd to me.

In my opinion the 450's offer the strengths of top notch SET amps but go much deeper eliminateing those weaknesses that SET amps have not making you wish for this or that. I have listened to allot SET amps and appreciate such, have I listened to every SET amp? No but I do know my merry-go-round of amp hunting has come to a end with these 450's as many others who are also privileged to own such.

Mike your speakers being powered on the bottom end unfortuantly would not realy fully benifit from the complete package that the VAC's have to offer anyways.

I suppose that's what makes this hobby so interesting, all the different options available.

dev November 30, 2011 08:17

SET amps just need the right speaker and room size match.The Found Music amp seems top notch,
So far I`ve found no other amp type that equals what high quality SET amplifiers do in terms of life-like realism,tone, space and presence.

In a room this large that 3 watt amp needs probably 100db or higher efficiency speakers. It amazing it does as well as it does under current conditions, that`s a lot of cubic space to fill.

charles1dad November 29, 2011 23:07

Mike,

Agree that SET purity is world apart from push-pull. Next best purity of sound comes from parallel single ended design which can extract more power from your favorite tube. Combined with the best transformer design and the best NOS tubes, you can have your cake and eat it too. I love the Dartzeel amp but there are times for Paralell SET.

On the other hand, if you really love the 2a3 monos then giving them a smaller venue with higher efficiency speakers, a second system may be a great solution.

natan6355 November 29, 2011 08:42

Cyrus,

i sure agree that VAC amps are excellent sounding. no doubt VAC would sound very nice in my system.

however; the purity of an SET with tube rectification (particularly mercury tube rectification) is another world apart from push-pull higher power tube amps. i have experience with higher power tube amps and so far i think the SS darTZeel Stereo amp competes pretty well directly with those higher power tube amps, and is lower noise and more linear too. maybe the dart is not quite as buttery smooth but it is less colored and more real to my ears overall. but that's just my personal tastes and not necessarily everyone's viewpoint.

my desire would be for a tube amplifier which imposes a minimum of it's own sonic signature on the music (which is how i view the darTZeel relative to other solid state amplifiers).

if i try another tube amp(s) it will likely have much in common with the 2a3 monos i have now. it's that other-worldly lack of distortion and purity that has bewitched me.....that clear view directly into the heart of the music.

mikelavigne November 29, 2011 00:42

Mike, I think the VAC 450 monoblocks are what you are looking for.

cyrus November 28, 2011 23:16

Jason and Harel,

i must say that overall i agree with your perspectives. i want the 2a3 amps to work so i'm searching for what they do that i love. and yes, there is plenty to love. and no, they cannot do the complete job.

do they do enough to earn a long term place in my system and listening culture?

and if they don't (or they do) what might replace them (or join them) as a tubed alternative to the darTZeel?

stay tuned....

mikelavigne November 28, 2011 20:28

Harel,

regarding the Telwire, both HC and non-HC. i still have both my Telwire power cables which i use from time to time on temporary gear in my system. i agree, an excellent value in a power cable. i did directly compare the Telwire to the Absolute Fidelity power cables on my digital, my preamp, and my amplifiers. the AF were clearly better than the Telwire in blacker backgrounds, microdynamics, and a sense of space. more refined. but there were no 'bad' things that the comparison revealed about the Telwire. and when you are comparing an Absolute Fidelity $1800 power cord (1.5m) to a $600-$800 Telwire power cord (6 foot) i'd say the Telwire won the 'value' battle. where the Absolute Fidelity really shined was on my speaker subwoofer amps and all the tape decks and turntables. Gary Koh has truely broke the code on motor power cords.

as far as finding a better power cord than the Absolute Fidelity; i'm happy with what they are doing. if someone sent me some power cords to audition, as long as they were not in a great hurry, i'd be glad to listen in my system. of course, back in the day, i said that, and for a few years i ended up doing cable shootouts all the time. which is why i'm a bit gun-shy now. it's just not much fun.

i did prefer the Telwire to my Jena Labs Fundamental One's on my amps and digital.

i'd certainly wait until you add your isolation transformer and Isoclean panel before you test any power cords....as i think power cords are very context driven. your plan, btw, sounds like it should turn out very nice.

mikelavigne November 28, 2011 20:24

Jason and Natan,
That amp seems to be be ultra quality but you two raise a good point. That`s a lot of cubic space to fill with 3 watts and 92-93 db efficiency speakers. In a smaller space it could workout well.

charles1dad November 28, 2011 20:10

Hi Mike,

Although I have never heard the 3 watts on your system I've heard it on mine, 92 db sens with powered subs below 80hz, 18'x37'x 10' h listening about 11' from speaks . Yes it's fun initially but not enough juice to hold my interest long term. In fact I was not satisfied with anything less than 20 watts. The best I lived with is the 300 b tubes from Border Patrol there Parallel single ended with 20 watts .Gary Dews was generous enough to give me lengthy home audition. 300b can be magical but even the bass on the border patrol which is very good was not satisfying for my taste which is more real world. I've lived with 807 and 845 tubes as well and liked them very much. But I would have to agree with Jason, that 211 tube has everything going for it with enough juice to drive 89-95 db sens spkrs in even large rooms at high volume. Audio Note makes some gorgeous equipment. But I opted for higher power design from Nat Audio. With the best Nos RCA or United 211's these have both the microdynamics with real world macrodynamics.

natan6355 November 28, 2011 17:21

Hi Mike
The 45 & 2A3 are wonderful valves and when a amplifier is designed around them properly & matched with speakers with high efficiency you can get beautiful sound.
In my opinion the 2A3 valve designed in a Single Ended Triode amplifier producing 3 watts does not have enough power for your speaker system even with a active bass system to get a full "physically engaging experience" as compared to your solid state amplifier with over 100 watts output power.

92 Db efficient speakers need a more powerful SET amplifier design to get the extra dynamics to compare in a large room like yours to your more powerful solid state amplifier, I would think you would need to go to a 211 SET designed amplifier to get the headroom you need.

I have used many SET amplifier over the years with Tannoy`s, Avantgarde, JBL & TAD speaker systems, in my experience you really need a minimum of 98 Db + efficient speakers for a 2A3 SET designed amplifiers to get a realistic head room in all types of music.
Even with 98 Db efficient speakers like TAD and more modern JBL 2226 15 inch bass drivers this does not always ring true and you still need a lot more power to control the bass woofer properly.

Your 2A3 amplifiers look very well designed and I am sure for some music (that is not to amplifier taxing) these amplifiers will sound wonderful in your system producing tone and delicate notes that your solid state amplifier will not capture, but on the other hand your solid state amplifier will be preferred for a fuller dynamic presentation for higher SPL music.

jasonparmenter November 28, 2011 13:33

Mike,

DO you recall the Tel wire power cord (HC or non HC) that you have used in the past and how it compares to your choice of Absolute Fidelity and Evolution acoustics power cords? seems like it could be a great value especially when one buys multiple power cords. I am looking at purchase of 10 -12 for every thing from tube monoblock amps, powered subs, Dartzeel 18ns and 108, reel to reel, digital, and tube phono preamp. Thankfully my TT is battery powered, but maybe not for long.

I think one needs to do a cable shoot out at least once to get it right because cables are highly system dependent and have become a major investment over the years. But I totally concur that its not high priority for my time as well.

I am planning to install a 15KVA Ultra 600 isolation transformer in front of my Isoclean Zero Ohm power distribution panel and then do a shoot out for both power cords and speaker cables.

I dont have the EA MM3 speakers so I may not benefit from the EA's product but I may still include it in my shoot out. I like the Absolute Fidelity story and value, so they may be involved. Then of course there is KUbala Sosna Elation and a newcomer, or at least one that has been brought to my attention recently, CH Acoustics. These may both be included since they do have courtesy trial policies.

Any further comments highly appreciated,
Harel

natan6355 November 28, 2011 09:30

Harel,

one point i forgot to make about power cables.

my viewpoint changed on what type power cord i needed before and after my Equi=tech 10WQ isolation transformer/distribution panel was installed. prior i used and liked the Jena Labs Fundamental One power cords which had an inline power conditioner. after the Equi=tech they became a liability.

one other point is that i have not done any kind of comprehensive power cord shootout recently; back in the day i did invest time to to that. i'm sure there are quite a few very good power cords out there.

doing cable shootouts is just not what i want to spend my time doing any more.

mikelavigne November 25, 2011 13:56

Harel,

great choice of gear! congrats!

agree on the Evolution BNC interconnect cables; they are amazing and when used with the dart 'zeel' interface are unsurpassed.

recently i did switch from my long-term speaker cable reference, the Transparent Opus MM2, to the Evolution Acoustics 'double-wire' speaker cables. the Evolutions were simply more synergistic in top to bottom balance in my particular system than the Opus MM2 (as one might expect). the Opus was slightly 'dark' sounding directly compared to the Evo's and the Opus had a slight degree of bass emphasis bordering on bloat compared to the more articulate Evo's. i still loved the way the Opus MM2 worked in my system and only slightly preferred the Evo's, but considering the amount i could sell the Opus MM2's for i made the change. i've since heard the 'triple wire' version of the Evolution Acoustics speaker cables and plan on switching to those at some point.

as far as power cords, i use -11- Absolute Fidelity power cords in my system and love them. they are built to be optimal in particular places. i use the specific ones, for motors (tape decks and tt's), amplifiers, and components.

i do use one 'triple wire' Evolution Acoustic power cord on my darTZeel amplifier. it's a big heavy mother but it was better than the Absolute Fidelity power cord in that application.

mikelavigne November 25, 2011 13:48

David,

thanks for the kind words.

the only gear i leave powered on 24/7 is my digital player/dac, the active amps in my Evolution Acoustics speakers, the darTZeel preamp, and (when i'm using) the darTZeel amplifier. the digital player is the Playback Designs MPS-5. once a month (more in the summer) i do shut off the MPS-5 just to allow it to cool off and re-boot.

the server for my dac is upstairs in my barn loft; and i do also allow that to stay powered up 24/7. my Equi=tech isolation transformer is hard wired into my power grid so it's always on.

when i travel i do turn everything off except the dart preamp.

when i anticipate using particular tape decks ahead of time i will typically give them 24 hours of warmup as it seems to help.

mikelavigne November 25, 2011 13:11

Mike and Charles,

no doubt these particular 2a3 amps are special, even for 2a3's. especially now that these amps have around 200 hours on them. and from a particular perspective they do now get the musical job done in my system. which is hard to believe if you've not heard it.

last night i did switch back to the dart stereo amp; and the system gets transformed into a much more physically engaging experience and room filling event. after an hour or so of warm up the dart reminds me of just how complete the music can be in every way. it's no wonder it took a 45 tube or 2a3 type tube amps to find a part of the music where the dart cannot do it all.

i'm learning.

mikelavigne November 25, 2011 13:02