Hi Nathan. Thanks. Musically-involving is probably the highest praise, and that has been the goal. I've tried to reach beyond the realm of an accurate, neutral, detailed, and impressive sounding system. While it has all that, I am no longer consciously aware of those descriptors.

I would also regard your power cables as a work of art. They contribute a powder keg of dynamics, a startling clarity, and a compelling sense of momentum that, I believe, conveys the energy and synergy of a group of performers.

I've always consider the symphony to be the ultimate statement of musical expression. I also thought this was the hardest form to reproduce at home. I would use it as a benchmark for listening to new systems, as to whether I could trick myself into thinking I was sitting in front of a performance. Now, I'm reveling in the mutliple virtues of chamber music, which now has a level of expressiveness equal to that of a symphony. I'm delving deep into new music with sonatas, trios, quartets, and quintets. There's nothing like hearing a group of professional musicians who unbutton the top shirt button, and throw their entire bodies into a performance. It's very cool and we are fortunate to have so many masterpieces to enjoy.

rtn1 September 08, 2011 15:14

After almost a year, I had the chance to listen to Rtn1's system again yesterday. It has so much energy now, it is truly remarkable. On every recording it sounded like the musicians were fresh and inspired, and putting as much into the music as they had. I haven't heard anything like that before, and I have heard quite a few systems. The other thing that really struck me was the fact that though you could hear differences in recording quality, none of them sounded bad. I have heard systems that are excellent with good recordings, yet put a cd on with less resolution and it loses every reason for why you would listen to it. That was not the case here, it was still musically involving and pleasant to the ears.

I am very appreciative for the opportunity to hear this system, it is one that I would be extremely apprehensive to change at the lowest levels. A true piece of art, congratulations!

nvanderstoep September 04, 2011 21:48

Thanks Miguel. I am at the point that if I lost everything and had to start from scratch, I would purchase the exact same system. One cannot underestimate the power of synergy.

I have taken alot of chances in putting this together. The journey has led me off the well-worn path. Luckily, it has paid off. Some key people include you, J.D., Nathan, Steve, and more - I could not have gone this far without the help of some obsessive talents that produce magic.

And I must also say that I remain in complete awe of the Avalon Isis. It was a tough nut to crack, but this is the one. I am loving this speaker more and more each year.

rtn1 August 13, 2011 03:18

Congratulations Rob! Putting a system that weights over a ton and have it completely disappear is an incredible accomplishment. The lack of distortion must make this system a majestic listening experience for the true music lover. I would love to hear from other audiophiles who have experienced your system. I look foward to a future listening session. ENJOY YOUR MUSICAL BLISS EXPERIENCE.

himiguel August 01, 2011 11:28

Using Xtreme Liquid Resolution CD enhancer and Walker Audio Talisman demagnetizer. Cleaner and more dynamic sound, additional detail, increased holographic effect with deeper stage, sweeter top end, more musical. Very nice pair of tweaks for a resolving system.

System is done. It's not about one thing, but rather everything. While I know precisely what each component is doing, I no longer hear the system. By systematically building based upon the sonic characteristics of each piece, I now have a system that does not make its own sound.

rtn1 August 01, 2011 00:00

I've added 5 NVS Silver I Ultimate power cables. These are truly special, and the best power cable I have heard. They feature silver conductors, magnet modules, a shield that grounds externally to the Tripoint Troy, Bocchino connectors, and multiple layers of special fill with dampening/shielding/dielectric properties. The two cables feeding my Tripoint Spartan each weighs 19 lbs. Fortunately, they are very flexible.

All this technology solves the problem of silver conductors. They have the startling clarity, momentum, dynamics, and extension that only silver could provide. Yet, the midrange is not lean, and the top is sweet instead of harsh and overly accentuated. The top end is limitless and sparkles like a finely cut diamond, distinguishing this cable from all others I've heard. The mid range is full with wonderful harmonics and texture. The bass conveys the proper heft. After listening to several different terminations, I believe the Bocchinos are a real achievement. These provide a soundstage that is real and as large as life.

Most importantly, these cables are very musical, natural, and transparent. They are also the most linear cables I have heard - from top to bottom, nothing is accentuated in my system. I would whole-heartedly recommend these cables, particularly on a power conditioner. There is absolutely no restriction even when a single cable is used to power both amps and preamps. After much searching, I've found a cable with no compromises.

rtn1 May 15, 2011 17:45

Hi Sam, Thanks. Yes, I am using 2 pair of Reflektor NOS 6H30DR in the Rex power module.

Hi Knghifi, I have five of the version II for preamp and source, two of the original Statement version on my amps. I really like the original Elrod Statement power cables. I may be the only one who prefers these to the new Statement cables. They are a great value, but will be replaced over the next year.

rtn1 February 10, 2011 11:53

Rtn1, I noticed you use 5 Elrod Statement II PC. Do you used these in components other than your source? I'm not familiar with Elrod but always thought the "II" is for source and "I" for higher current components.

knghifi February 09, 2011 19:01

Rob,

Thanks for sharing your observations regarding tubes and REX.

I'm enjoying REX and 4 150SE's to power my system :-) Are your 6H30's the DR variant?

Again, what a wonderful system! Avalon has some great speakers. I heard the Isis partnered with Edge amplification and beautiful sound ensued...the upstream electronics were high line and commensurate with the system.

BAT REX, Pass Labs, and Avalon...AWESOME!

Best,

Sam

c1ferrari January 30, 2011 18:18

I'd like to make a slight ammendment to the tube comparisons listed above. I determined that the evaluation was done with leaky tube, and that a single leaky tube really kills the magic of this preamp.

Adding a pair of EH 6H30 gold pin tubes to the power module seems to be a viable option, and some may prefer that type of sound. I've now settled on 2 NOS 6H30 pair and 2 Sovtek 6H30 in the power module, which in my system, provides the best dynamics, clarity, and balance. A single EH 6H30 pair adds more midrange warmth and romance, but to me, a very slight haze. Again, if someone is looking for a nudge towards a more warm and tubey sound, a single pair of EH 6H30 may be worth a try.

rtn1 January 26, 2011 10:36

Hi Davvie, I agree that Steve removes any weak links from the Wadia by using parts not feasible for production. Manufacturers need to find stable supplies of parts, and this limits what they can provide. For example, the Black Gate caps are simply not available anywhere else.

I have done some further rolling with the BAT tubes, trying the EH 6H30 gold-pin tubes. I tried an EH pair in the main module, an EH pair with 3 NOS in the power module, and an EH pair with 2 NOS and 1 Sovtek pair in the power module. In each place, the sound became more soft and diffuse, which is not my personal preferrence. If you are looking for a romantic sound, then I think an EH pair in the power module with 3 pair NOS would make sense. Or, one might add a pair to the switched position in the main module, to permit quick selection. I've settled upon 3 pair NOS in the power module, and 2 pair Sovtek in the other positions.

rtn1 January 22, 2011 11:59

Hi Rtn1,
What a wonderful system you have put together! Must make beautiful music and make you justifiably proud,as well.
As a Wadia owner too, I can attest to what sonic wonders the Statement mod from GNSC has provided to further my enjoyment of CD's.Well worth the cost invoved.

davvie January 21, 2011 20:18

Rtn1,

Thank you for the lead on Champaign; I will have to check it out before we move back home this summer (when I finish fellowship)

I will definitely send you an email sometime b/w now and then (likely when my family goes back home for a visit)

In addition to your stellar spread of equipment, I have been drawn to your system for the seeming openness of your photos. Before I came back to "school" for a fellowship, I had a mancave at one time; I didn't use it as much as I would have thought because I ended up wanting to spend most of my free time with my family. My hope is to one day have a system that can be somewhat open to where we all spend time together, but not lose all of the virtues of a dedicated area. That way we can all enjoy!

Sam

bigsam2 January 15, 2011 20:59

Nvanderstoep, I tested in both directions for period of days at a time ... ~75 hours total. I've been using HiFi Tuning fuses for years and always thought directional is a bunch of crock until now. In the wrong direction, sound like out of phase, limiting, soundstage shrinks, lean and brittle.

What's interesting is I discussed with Kevin Hayes before using the HiFi Tuning fuse. He said the fuse is designed to address issues not found in Class A. So in theory it shouldn't make any differences but worth a try. I A/B with stock fuse on familiar tracks and same volume, sound was smoother and more coherant with HiFi Tuning fuse ... sound hifi-ish with stock fuse.

Rtn1, the Supreme fuse has been running in my preamp for ~6 hours and I welcome the increase in resolution and detail. It started out a little rough but improving so will assess again after further break in.

With the sophistication of your system, changing 2 tubes will cause major havoc :-) I agree with you it's amazing how changing 2 tubes effects the sound. I've been having a blast rolling tubes. Once it clicks with the magic combination, it's fabulous. Finally settled on Tele 12au7 ribbed plates and 1960's Siemen e88cc. Is 6h30 the only option for your Rex?

Just an observation, with so much gold in your system, probably need some silver to compensate. Also with the Troy, you can run closer to the edge with more silver without going over board. At the end, it's system synergy.

knghifi January 15, 2011 15:38

Rob, I would just say from my point of view that using silver versus gold is not the problem; rather the issue is that the Troy is eliminating a major weakness in your system as demonstrated by the fact that there is far more audible distortion ("harsh and edgy"), when it is removed. Once your ear/brain has to deal with more distortion, every tiny, tiny thing you do to the system will easily picked up by your ears as a change, meaning that there is a change in the nature of the distortion. If you shift a cable 2" to the right, if you put a piece of aluminium foil on top of the amp, absolutely everything will make a difference, including whether you use silver, gold, platinum, copper, bronze, or iron, etc, etc.

Frank

fas42 January 11, 2011 22:27

Knghifi, the Supreme fuses didn't seem to work in my system. I found them mechanical, and the slight increase in detail did not translate to increased realism. But, I believe this may be a system issue.

The effect of gold is very interesting. While I don't think the Hifi Gold fuses have much gold in them (probably just a thin layer), they seem to bring a depth and roundness to the sound, without sacrifices. Just yesterday, I switched a single pair of Reflektor 6H30DR tubes (out of 8 pair of preamp tubes total) for EH 6H30 gold pin tubes. The sound was more diffuse, slow, and flat. The beginning of the notes were blurred, obscuring their relationship to the soundstage. With a gold-based power cable, I found the sound to be sluggish and lacking upper and lower extension. But, the Jade Audio gold IC and SCs bring a magical midrange and clarity, that is really only comparable to good tubes. Does any of this make any sense? I now question whether silver is best for AC, gold balanced with silver preferable for transmitting the audio signal. The gold fuses seem to be the exception to that observation.

Another system-dependent variable is the Troy, which I now appreciate to permit the addition of more silver at the power side. This external grounding (passive) has allowed me to add more silver without the harshness. If I were to remove the Troy, my system would sound very harsh and edgy. I find it very interesting that a passive system can really seem to alter the intrinsic sonic quality of a metal. And the effect is not smoothing or obscuring, but rather, putting all the frequencies back into their correct proportions.

rtn1 January 11, 2011 11:07

Interesting assessment on the direction of the fuse Knghifi. Did you do this test when you first got the fuses, or after they had played for some time? If they had played for some time, did the reverse direction sound better or worse?

On the fuse situation, I have liked the new Furutech fuses over the HiFi Golds I used to have. Have not heard the Supremes.

nvanderstoep January 11, 2011 03:25

Rth1,
So what's your take on the Supreme HiFi Tuning fuses? Do you hear any improvements over the gold version?

I'm using HiFi Gold Tuning fuses in all my components. Kind of strange but for the 1st time, direction of the fuse is very significant on my VAC Sig MKIIa preamp. In the wrong direction, sound is restricted and lean.

BTW, from my experience, I totally agree on your assessment on power and tube rolling.

knghifi January 11, 2011 02:53

Sorry, Rob, I didn't quite get the point across which I was trying to make: that is, the weaknesses in a system are what causes a recording to sound harsh. It IS possible to eradicate all critical weaknesses and it is certainly worthwhile doing so, because then you will be in the enviable position of there being no such thing as a harsh recording. Having read the recent posts of muralman1 I would suggest that he has reached this goal, especially since he comments on listening right next to his speakers ribbons.

I agree that "large" performances are more difficult to get right, because all the ambience clues have to be reproduced with a sufficient degree of correctness. Studio recordings frequently surround the performances with enormous soundstages, a good example being Led Zeppelin's first recording, and the system has to work extremely well to reproduce this convincingly.

Cheers,
Frank

fas42 January 09, 2011 06:34

Hi Frank, I totally agree that my system will always have some weaknesses. It is impossible for something to do everything, all the time, even in real life. I have a shelf of Mahler #2, each with different conductors, musicians, and halls. It would be hard to pick one, as they each have something to say.

The most important aspect is to create a system that draws you in, and compells you to stay.

rtn1 January 09, 2011 02:25

Okay, Rob -- may I call you that, I notice on earlier posts you signed off with such -- may I be so bold as to suggest that there may still be weaknesses with your setup. My experience is that when the system IS working to a sufficiently high level then the ear/brain can be completely "fooled", that is, sufficient information is being presented correctly to the auditory system to fully counter the impact of distortion components generated by the reproducing system, and the auditory system says, "this IS real".

The positive side effect of this is the drivers truly disappear, and I mean, to the degree suggested by my earlier post. That is, you CAN approach the tweeter on one side while the system is working at normal volume and not be able to identify the sound emerging from the driver, even if your ear is literally only inches away! To many people this will sound quite bizarre, and impossible, but once experienced the sensation can never be forgotten.

Why this can happen is that the ear/brain has its own compression system built in; people experience this when the volume is steadily wound up on a good system, and they don't realise how loud it is. Their ear/brains have automatically compensated for the increase by internally compressing the sound level. Another way of experiencing this is that when the system is working well is to stand close to the speakers and then walk further and further away, down the hallway, say: the sound level will not appear to drop significantly even when you are many 10's of feet away.

So the action of putting your ear next the driver is the same process, but in reverse. Any harshness there is picked up the ear/brain and the "real" illusion is shattered -- you can hear the driver working.

My own method is to use recordings with the "worst", "harshest" string tone, or high level ringing cymbals, and the ear against the driver test, to assess progress ...

Frank

fas42 January 07, 2011 23:56

Hi Frank,

It is hard to generalize about how the poor recordings sound. Several that come to mind are Bartok's Wooden Prince with Boulez or Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky by Gergiev. Both are miked too close and do sound harsh, which is a shame as they are modern recordings and good performances. They are also very large performances, so that might be part of it as well. Large and close is a no-no from an engineering perspective.

It is hard to assess tweeter integration in front of a single speaker, because it would take several types of music and I would need to sit at a normal listening height. When sitting near-field, in the center, I cannot hear it as a single unit.

rtn1 January 07, 2011 22:14

Rtn1, sorry I didn't respond earlier... Actually, I do understand exactly what you are trying to convey when you say "opening the soundstage, creating a sense of true depth, and letting everything flow. It is very hard to describe, until you hear it." In my experience, this is precisely what one's goal should be, but as you indicate, very difficult to reach, and once achieved extremely precarious in nature. It is pretty clear that very, very few people have persevered to the point of achieving that level of reproduction ...

When you say up to 95% of your classical recordings are excellent, how would you characterise the failings of that last 5%. I notice you posted on a thread about the "sweetness" of violins: would you say the string tone on the 5% is harsh, or dull or indistinct, or is it something quite other that is the problem.

You mention your speakers disappearing: how close can you approach the tweeter of one channel when playing at normal volume before your ear can identify that sound is coming from the driver?

Cheers,
Frank

fas42 January 07, 2011 03:53

Hi Fas42,

You raise a very good point, and something unexpected. When I had the Thiel with Nordost cables and no preamplifier, the level of detail increased but so did the dispartiy between good and bad recordings. Close miking, congested and distant soundstage, loss of dynamics, key clacks, coughs, floor creaks, etc. All these things were highlighted.

With my current system, practically all my recordings sound great. I now appreciate that recordings that were distant and dull were not being resolved properly. The Troy really changed that perspective by opening the soundstage, creating a sense of true depth, and letting everything flow. It is very hard to describe, until you hear it. The background distractions are also not noticable. I can sometimes hear a soloist breath and hum, or a conductor grunt, but I don't hear creaks and page turns.

All this applies to acoustic music, recorded from a natural perspective, in a hall. Acoustic instruments have so much complexity and color, that I can no longer listen to electronic generated music. Studio recordings sound dead to me, as they do not have the proper decay and space. Improper miking, like in the piano, at the opening of a saxophone, or just next to the cymbal is just not proper. I like to be sitting in the audience, not on someone's fingerboard. I can also immediately hear unnatural engineering and mixing, whether there is excessive channel separation, voice filters, electronic decay effects, or overly large instrumental images.

For classical music, I would estimate that 90-95% of my recordings sound excellent, and 40-50% are phenomenal. Another factor is the BAT preamp, which allows me to switch a pair of tubes by a switch, and customize the sound for various recordings. I think people are really amazed at the subtle but important differences on an individual recording by changing a couple tubes.

I would agree that if some recordings are sounding worse with an 'upgrade', you may be headed in a wrong direction.

rtn1 January 04, 2011 11:29

Hi Knghifi,

Currently, the plan is to do both sides of the power conditioner, the transport, and maybe the digital controller. The power conditioner and source will likely have the greatest impact. In 2011, I'd also like to complete the one remaining interconnect and speaker cables.

For 2012, I may complete the last 3 pair of power cords, but will play it by ear. I need to be convinced that additions beyond the initial 3-4 won't take me too far in a single direction. If each addition gets me closer to live music, then things should continue to proceed.

The cables for the components will not be as elaborate as the ones on the conditioner.

rtn1 January 04, 2011 02:49