I just got my Vandersteen Quatros today. The guys from Stereo Unlimited did a quick checkout with the Vandertones CD and will come back for more complete adjustment when the speakers are settled in.
Until I get my Bryston 3B-SST back from Bryston service, I'm using a pair of cute little Rotel RMB-100 mono amps. I might keep using them; I like the idea really short speaker cables.
The speaker wires shown are homemade in a "true" bi-wire configuration from Streetwires Supercable (14 AWG; hey, it was a pretty blue) and intended for the 3B-SST. Raptor #10 gold barrier spades on the speaker end and Audioquest 5/16" spades on the amp end. Crimped and soldered.
I still have some scraps of Supercable left over for under 3' runs to the Rotel RMB-100s. The Rotels make bi-wiring easy by providing 2 sets of binding posts. These short cables will use #10 ring connectors (just tin) on the speaker side as per RVs preferences and Audioquest 1/4" gold spades on the amp side.
I think after this I need to do some work on noise reduction (I live near a freeway) by adding a second pane to some of my windows.
I had a lot of buyer's remorse after ordering these, and had a lot of time to think about it over the 7 weeks they took to get to my door. $8k speakers!? Are you mad?! But after several hours of listening those anxieties have evaporated. Well, except for being $8k poorer. I'll try to post more about the sound of the speakers after I've lived with them for a few weeks.
180W monoblock tube amps. 4 X KT-88 + 2 X 12au7 + 1 X 12ax7 per side.
Balanced Audio VK-3iX
Includes optional phono stage.
AURALiC Vega
With Sanctuary Audio Processor as heart, AURALiC introduces several cutting-edge technology for VEGA: Megahertz upsampling algorithm up-samples all PCM music to 1.5MHz in 32bit; Femto Master Clock provides an ultimate clock precision with jitter only 82 femtoseconds(0.082 picosecond). Binding with other AURALiC's patented technologies such as 'ORFEO Class-A module' and discrete 'Purer-Power solution', VEGA will bring high resolution music playback experience to climax.
Michell Engineering Gyro SE
With the power supply upgrade, the Orbe clamp, and tonearm decoupler.
SME 309
Magnesium tonearm with detachable magnesium headshell.
Raspberry Pi 3 Model B
The transport for my Logitech Media Server system, it replaces a Squeezebox Touch. The Pi runs piCorePlayer.
Benz Micro Ace High Output
An original Benz Micro Ace High Output cartridge (before the "S"). I had put this away, not liking it's overemphatic midrange, but now loaded at 1500 Ohms, it's sounds great.
They sound lovely now, with a broad, even, dimensional soundstage.
The amps came with a quad of NOS JAN Philips ECG 5814A tubes in the 12AU7 positions. I briefly tried some RCA clear tops, but I prefer these Philips tubes for their warmth; the clear tops seemed a bit closed in. For the 12AX7s, I'm using current production Ei Elites (just some tubes I had in my closet) in place of the stock Electro-Harmonix tubes. The soundstage seems more "filled in" and less forward with the Ei tubes. I've been considering trying some NOS 5751 tubes in the 12ax7 sockets.
A recent change that made a huge difference was adjusting the Vandie tilt by removing a spacer. It seems I got my ear height measurement wrong and have always had the tilt too low.
I also replaced all the 6922 tubes in my BAT 3iX with Amperex orange labels, a definite step up in presence and warmth from the mix of EH and Genelex tubes I was using.
Before the Quatros, I was using the NHT Xd system. I never had the right pre-amplification for the Xds. The NHT Xd dedicated amp has a 10k Ohm input impedance, and the pre-amps I was trying to use with them had too high output impedances. This rolls off the lows and highs. If I'd figured this out, I might have gotten more satisfying sound out of the Xds. Given this, I'm not sure giving some memories of how they sounded would be helpful.
While I wait for my Rogue amps, I dusted off a Bryston B-60 integrated as a backup. Amazing how good this little piece sounds. Overall warmth, with a big, bold colorful midrange. It's lacking some transparency and "refinement", but it's really enjoyable to listen to.
System edited: I've decided to trade in the BAT VK-250 for Rogue M-180 tube monoblocks (on their way). I think I'll also keep the Neko DAC and sell the Cambridge, and am also considering replacing the 3ix with a solid state preamp, preferably passive. So a complete system overhaul is in the works.
This is the 1 volt version, and I have it hooked up directly to my VK-250 amp (input sensitivity: 1.5V). This allows the digital volume control of the Squeezebox to be used without without using very much digital attenuation and without worrying about volume control "accidents" causing damage. The only worry is that I might not have enough gain for some albums. I can always have the unit upgraded to the 2 volt version.
I was worried this set up might be lacking in bass, but bass actually seems to be better than the 840C. Dynamics seem excellent as well.
I also ordered a pair of Genelex Gold Lion 6922s. So altogether I have:
2 Genelex Gold Lion 6922 4 Amperex A-frame 6DJ8 4 Electro-Harmonix 6922 (the brand used by BAT) 2 JJ 6V6-S (original BAT issue) 2 Sylvania VT-107-A (6V6)
After much swapping around I've settled for now on the EH and Sylvania tubes. This seems to give the best combination of depth and transparency, with added warmth and presence from the Sylvanias.
I've only been running them in for a couple hours. They have a big, juicy, vibrant midrange. But are also light in the bass compared to the JJs. Seems I can't win.
I was very disappointed with them. They have a nice creamy top and a clear midrange, but they are bass light and dull, and imaging seemed unfocused. These are probably not the best Amperex tubes, but I'm a little leery of wasting more money on 6922s. Maybe something "cheap" like Rocket Logos?
My experience with the Pope 6v6 was much more promising. They dryness I mentioned earlier worked itself out to a unobjectionable level. They really do brighten up the overal tone of the 3iX. However, they are still bass light compared to the JJ 6v6-S. I've ordered a pair of Sylvania VT-102a to try.
I'm currently burning in some Pope 6V6GT tubes in the BAT 3iX. Compared to the stock JJ 6V6 tubes, the Popes seem a little dry on top and a little lacking in bass, but they do seem to lift some of the midrange gloom of the stock tubes.
The Pope tubes were recommended by Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio.
I have some Amperex 6DJ8s coming tomorrow from tctubes. I'll probably put back the JJ 6V6s so I get a better idea of what's doing what.
Tried the Calypso. In some ways more refined than the 3iX, more extended highs (at least not closed in) and more neutral midrange. The 3iX has a plumper midbass, giving it a more dramatic presentation. The 3iX soundstage seems deeper, more dimensional, and integrated. Despite the flaws, I find myself enjoying sitting in the sweetspot more with the 3iX in the chain. I think I'm pretty happy with what I have and am done with auditions for a while.
If the Benchmark sounded good with the Bryston, it sounds fabulous going direct to the BAT VK-250SE. The dryness and leanness are ameliorated somewhat, and this amp is at a higher level in terms of roundness of tone, immediacy, and dimensionality. A good combo with the fast, clean Benchmark sound. Though there is still a touch of smoothing that seems to be part of the BAT house sound, and which I could do without. This is a good lesson in how much the sound of my system is due to this amp.
Feeding the BAT 3iX using the Benchmark in its fixed output mode, the midbass is still missing the fullness of the Cambridge 840C DAC. So it's actually the Cambridge DAC that is partly responsible for the fuller sound.
So I'm back to where I started, with the same pre and DAC, but I now have a clearer idea of what's doing what. Of all the pre-amps, I still prefer the presentation of the 3iX. Its covered quality now seems like a more minor failing, and may be in part due to the amp. I think I may still try the Aesthetix Calypso and the Rowland Capri pre-amps. Trying a different DAC or amp (maybe the Rogue tube monoblocks) is also a possibility.
I passed on Endler attenuators for now because I decided to try some active gear first. So far I've had home the following SS pre-amps, mostly tested with the BAT VK-250SE amp:
BAT VK-42SE Gryphon XT (a Danish pre from the mid 90s) Benchmark DAC1 HDR
The VK-42 has more on top than the tube unit, as you'd expect. It'a still smooth sounding and slightly laid back. Well, out of my price range, so I didn't bother to spend much serious time with it (it was a well-broken in unit if you worry about that sort of thing).
The Gryphon is more interesting. It seems to have everything tonally. Vibrant, natural timbres and a big juicy soundstage. However, into the VK-250, it seems a bit too forward, and the soundstage a bit unsettled (this is while being fed by the Cambridge 840C DAC). Going back to my 3iX, I appreciate more the way it lays out the soundstage in a natural manner in both width and depth so that it's easier to follow the music, but I'm still bothered by its covered sound.
Into the Bryston 3B-SST, the Gryphon's soundstage is more laid back, but the sound is much less juicy.
The Benchmark (used as both DAC and pre-amp) has top end extension into the stratosphere, and plenty of sparkle. It really excels in the midrange. Woodwinds in particulary sound breathtakingly pure. However, I miss the lift that the other preamps give to the midbass. Massed strings have plenty of sheen, but sound a little dry. The Benchmark seems to have good synergy with the Bryston amp. The sound is also so clean that it's hard to judge volume without the usual subtle distortion cues.
By the way, the Gryphon has a really excellent MC phono stage. I think the best I've heard so far.
Just for sheets and giggles, I hooked the output of the DAC directly to the amp, using the digital volume of the Squeezebox to control volume. I'm really amazed at the difference. The soundstage is more brightly lit, instruments are more vibrant, massed strings have greater warmth and sheen, and brass more bite. The sound is overall much more exciting and involving. I think the 3iX is just too dark to work with the Vandersteens.
To avoid using the digital volume control I ordered some Endler stepped attenuators. Of course, this means only one source at a time, but I've been listening almost only to the Squeezebox these days.
Well, that's all I'm using right now, the Monoprice "premium" XLR cables. I have borrowed some expensive XLR cables from Stereo Unlimited, and I'm sure they'd let me take home any others they have, but swapping interconnects doesn't really interest me that much.
Daverz, you have done me a great favor on a thread I posted about the virtues of balanced output from my Cambridge 840C CD player vs single ended, you even provided a link to a manufacturer who made pro balanced cables. Well, I spent a measly $20 and am listening doing A/B comparisons back and forth against a kilobuck pair of Kimber KS series single ended cables. I am shocked! Each cable has it's own virtues and faults, but the $20 cables are giving the Kimbers a run for the money!! The other thing notable, is I am so used to stupid priced cables I am amazed at the quality of the balanced cables. I tell you it's a shame, I have a cable that cost as much as the component itself. I'll finish blabbing. Might you have a suggestion for a balanced connect under, say, $250? I'm sold on balanced and sick of snake oil. Thanks, and by the way, nice system you have!
Back to fooling with the tilt. I think I've got it right this time.
As I've described before, my thick carpet makes it hard to readjust the tilt of the Quatros whenever the speakers are moved (a change of toe-in for example). Every move would require releveling the speakers in both planes, adding back spacers for each speaker.
I came up with a direct way to measure the tilt with a laser level so that I can skip the releveling procedure. You do have to make sure the speakers are laterally level so that the line of the laser level is not tilted. As described before, I use "fender" washers for this.
The procedure is based on reading numbers off the tilt chart in the manual. For example, for a 34" listening height at 6', 12 spacers are required. This is 3 more spacers than the level position (9 spacers). The spacers are 1/16" thick, and sit 18" (1.5') back from the front cones. So the slope of the speakers with 12 spacers will be
3/16" / 1.5' = 1/8" per foot
This can be verified with a digital level. At 6 feet this corresponds to a total drop in level of the laser line of 3/4", which is
(35.5" - 34")/2
Where 35.5" is the on-axis listening height for the Quatros. The calculation is similar for the other lines on the tilt chart. In general, the drop in level at the listening position with listening height h should be
(35.5" - h)/2
Note that this formula is independent of distance from the plane of the speakers. Just don't get closer than 6' as implied by the tilt chart.
So I place a laser level on the top of each speaker, measure the height of the laser line right in front of the speaker, and then the drop in the height of the line right behind the listening chair. This makes it easy to readjust tilt each time. Make sure the tilts are equal by leaving the extended measuring tape in place "upside-down" propped against the back of the chair (you'll want a stiff measuring tape for this) and making sure the height of the laser line is the same for each speaker (or using R. Vandersteen's procedure of making marks on a sheet of paper at the listening position. You can get a very precise and equal tilt this way.
Embarrassingly, the sonic problems I alluded to earlier seem to have been a speaker wire connection problem. When I replaced my homemade double bi-wire cables with some Canare wire I had lying around (using just bare wire), the sound was radically better. And when I put my homemade pair back it was still better. The connection to the amp was apparently not seated well. The 5/16" spades I had on the amp end are obviously not ideal for the 1/4" posts on the BAT.
Because of this episode, I finally broke down and ordered some commercially finished wire, some Audioquest Slate bi-wire cables, just to see if they would improve on my amateur hour cables. Slate is the cheapest they make, I think. Audioquest claims that the lower and upper frequency runs are magnetically independent, so they should have the same advantage as double bi-wiring, supposedly. I don't really believe the technical bafflegab that's used to justify bi-wiring, double or otherwise.
Thanks. I rarely use that lamp except when I'm messing with the turntable or checking the condition of a record. I should probably switch to an LED lamp for this.
The main sonic problem I'm having now is that the right side of the room is noticeably overdamped by the heavy curtains I'm using to reduce road noise (with only mild success). Once I have double-paned windows installed I should be able to use some lighter drapes.
Hi Daverz, If I can offer a small piece of advise. You might want to remove the halogen lamp(s) that is in your room in the picture. Halogen lights really impact the line current and you will hear the noise on your system. I found this out the hard way, but once I removed all the halogens in my house, I really enjoyed the silence much better.
Looks like you have put together a very nice system, one to be envied. I can picture the smile spreading across your face as it dawns on you just how good it sounds. Enjoy.
A few days after buying the amp above I got a call from my bank. They thought the charge must be fraudulent. The lady read out the amount charged by the stereo store with a rather incredulous tone. Well, I can't blame her; who spends that kind of money on stereo equipment these days. ;)
Well, I figure this will be my only amp for decades.
I've been schlepping the Quatros around to various locations in my room since I got them, never quite satisfied with the bass difinition or the stereo balance. They ended up again at roughly the same position shown in the pics above, but I could still only get copious bass with annoying resonances or soft bass without them.
Yesterday I decided deal with this once and for all. Using the Room EQ Wizard (REW) measurement tool and my Radio Shack meter, I noticed a deep dip in the left speaker frequency response in the 100-120 Hz range. I took the spikes off the speaker and slid it around, watching the display on the REW real time analyzer until the dip shallowed out. This put the speaker about a foot further out from the wall. I redid the bass EQ, but this time instead of turning the contour control up, I left it all the way down and turned the overall bass level up +1.
Together with the BAT amp, I'm now getting excellent bass definition and impact without any annoying resonances. Apparently the "Q" of my room is such that it's best to leave the contour control all the way at the bottom setting.
The imbalance issue turned out to be tube related. Swapping driver tubes around in the preamp reduced the imbalance to a negligible level. The 3iX also has gain trim pots on the circuit board if that doesn't work. The first thing I'll check from now on if the balance seems off.
I was starting to despair that these speakers we just not going to work in my Dr. Seuss-like room, but I'm now getting the fabulous Quatro imaging and excellent bass. So I'm happy a happy camper for now.
Bought a BAT VK-250 today after a 2 day home audition. This model has the BAT-PAK. And according to the guys at the shop this one is very special. No, not this model, this particular amp that they sold me! ;)
The 250 is, well, very balanced sounding. Great grip on the bass, a well-rounded midrange, and smooth but extended highs. It is, perhaps, a little forward sounding, which does seem to complement the Vandies. Also, I'm probably hearing the true character of the 3iX with an amp that's not loading it down too much.
I've found that the Bryston amp, with an input impedance of only 10K Ohm/phase is a poor match for the BAT pre. I was going by BAT's stated minimum input impedance, but apparently that leaves the bass (and perhaps the midrange?) too much on the lean side.
I have a BAT VK-55SE tube amp home for audition, and while it does sound wonderful, I wonder how I'm going to feel about it when Summer temps go over 100 F.
