Thanks for the above suggestions. Art Farmer's LATHN was especially nice. Thanks Sal.

Charles, I haven't had my spl meter out in awhile but I just measured it now, in my office, and was averaging 60-70 db. I'll check it out later when I have the main system on. I'll guess 70-80 then.

Agree.... low spl levels sound great with a SET (and correct speakers) and our ears will thank us.

It would be interesting to see what the many types of amplifiers would measure "at low levels" as opposed to "max power". I have seen the specs on some highly regarded (non SET) amps when measured across their power bandwidth, and while they measured fantastic between 1 and "their max" watts they had a sharp rise in distortion below 1/4th of a watt. It's been said that triodes have decreasing distortion with decreasing power. My ears hear that.

Some might think, "what can you hear with a 1/4 watt?", I think a lot. Even with a low rated 85 db speaker, you get that with 1 watt, 75 db would take 1/10th of a watt and 65 would "require" 1/100 wpc. I just measure out TV volume at 70 db from 12' away and it's not a whisper.

Sorry for the long post. I'm going between this and US Open Tennis on TV.

Q: What does Tennis and our systems have in common?
A: Why, SETs of course. :-)

onemug September 01, 2013 21:03

Thanks Charles.

I'm going venture a guess that you play your music at the same level it would be if you were at a club, yes, no? If you were at a club, would you prefer the "sound" from the front, middle or back row?

Just accessed GM "Night Lights" from MOG. I like the style. First cut had me. Great imaging on the second cut. Had to stop typing to appreciate it.

onemug August 31, 2013 18:07

Hi Charles,

I'm curious as to what your reasons were in choosing the EML XLS over their standard 300b.

According to the EML literature, it seems like the XLS is optimized for 300b amps that run their tubes harder and/or if someone played their music pretty loud, it would hold up and sound better than the standard one. Do they lose anything at really low levels?

I have no doubt that it sounds great and I may have to try them someday. I have their older standard 300b with the larger glass and the newer smaller glass one (about the size of the WE) with gold grids in addition to the Mesh we talked about in the past. btw, the Mesh seems to keep getting better still.

Also, been checking in here from time to time for your jazz recommendations. Listening to Frank Morgan as I type. Thanks. I'll check out your newest from your latest post. Keep them coming.

onemug August 31, 2013 16:09

Charles,

Just put on Frank Morgans LTTD. First track has me. I get a taste of Miles from it. Thanks.

I mentioned Chuck Loeb before. If you want to try him, start with "The Love Song Collection". I've had that in rotation for months now. I think Frank will be joining him.

onemug July 18, 2013 15:10

Charles,

"Onemug,
Any further impressions with your EML 5u4 rectifier tubes? Do they justify the premium cost?"

I'm still tweaking my vintage system but I got some time in this week on the big system so here is the update:

I do like the sound of them more and more as they age and they are keepers. As far as justifying the $$$, I think they are a poster child for diminishing returns. They are one of the best I've heard but at 250 per...yikes and my amp is dual rectified so it's...yikes, yikes, but I got past that pretty quick and now it's pure enjoyment.

Been listening to Chuck Loeb lately. Have you heard him?

onemug May 25, 2013 02:30

Charles,

My vintage system has been occupying my time lately. Some very rare pieces have become available and it's such a thrill to get my hands (and ears) on them that the big system has been neglected somewhat but I did start getting back into it a few days ago.

I'm still in the breakin period. For awhile I thought the EML rectifier was a little too analytical but it is mellowing out as I'm getting back into it.

During that analytical period I was thinking maybe the combo of the 300b mesh and 5u4g mesh was a little too much for me. When I subbed the EML solid plate in, there was the "yeah that's the ticket" factor. Likewise when I ran the EML 300b mesh with my NOS RCA 5u4g's "that was the ticket".

This is with maybe 100 hours on the them. Not much info on these mesh rectifiers so I don't know if they will continue to improve but I'm back to using them and will let you know.

onemug May 03, 2013 15:13

Charles,
Interesting phenom on the EML meshes.

I've been thinking of getting a pair of Franks in the near future. I want to make sure I understand you correctly. You had the Franks updated/revised "after" you got the EML's and that's when the output of the meshes went south. Is that correct? and besides the output, I'm guessing the sound went with it?

onemug March 26, 2013 00:08

Charles,
"why didn't you tell me how excellent and natural the tone is?"....Well, I did say they were very clear...:-).

I think you will find them even a little more organic around the 20-50 hr mark.

I'm dealing with putting the hours on my new rectifiers which did change the sound of my amp a little when first installed new.

Keep us posted through the break in.

onemug March 14, 2013 00:04

Charles,
I've had my pair of 5u4's for about a week so it's a work in progress. Up til yesterday I favored my NOS RCA's but today the EML's moved it to a closer race. I'll see what happens as the hours add up and let you know. Only about 20 on them now.

If you decide to get them, you want to be sure your first cap to be less than 40uh.

Will you be reporting back here tonight on your first hours with your meshes?

onemug March 12, 2013 00:01

Charles,
I think I got that off a page in the box that they come in.

btw, I just got a couple of the EML 5u4g "mesh" rectifiers that I'm trying out. Quite a show at night.

You have an interesting evening ahead of you.

onemug March 11, 2013 20:15

Charles,
Just a heads up....EML recommends playing the meshes for no more than 4 hours and then letting them cool completely before starting up again. This is just for the first couple of cycles.

Let me know what you think of the "first 4 hours".

onemug March 11, 2013 16:47

I think it might have to do with the lack of resonance or ringing. The sound seems very clear, similar to what I hear with "special" caps.

I would bet that the Takatsuki has the lowest ringing of any solid plate and that is part of what makes it such a great tube.

Would you describe one of the differences between the Takatsuki and Sophia RP to be anything like that?

onemug March 09, 2013 21:47

Charles,
I have not heard the XLS. It's made to tolerate higher dissipation amps and may or may not sound better that their standard solid plate (you know how that goes).

I do like the regular solid plate a lot. In my 3 300b amps it has been one of my favorites or "the" favorite.

If we spent an evening comparing tubes, I would bring both the EML solid and mesh with me. The mesh has a sound that is unique. I just read that you ordered a pair of the meshes. When will you be getting them?

I'd be very interested in your impressions from early on thru their break in and the comparison to the Takasuki.

Re Holly Cole: I had a very memorable afternoon with Bill Johnson (Audio Research founder) back in the 90's. Turns out his west coast winter place is just a few miles from me. He invited me over to his studio after having a good talk we went into his sound room to hear some new products he was designing. The first song he played was Holly Coles "Tennessee Waltz" from that DSIB cd. Of course I had to buy it after that. That day will forever be burnt into my memory. RIP Bill.

onemug March 09, 2013 17:27

Charles,
Nice spec on the Franks. Whatever tube you run in them will have a nice long life. Kudos to Israel.

The Comparison: I've always enjoyed the sound of the Sophia Princess mesh (pp). The EML mesh is better in all the areas you mentioned. Brand new, the harmonic center was a little north of the Sophia but as they got some hours on them it came down. I'd be happy if it stayed where it is but I have a feeling it will get even better.

I'd also describe them as....clearer??? I would have never described the others as microphonic or having a resonance, but like with "our" capacitor findings, when you put something in that gets "less" in the way, then you hear what what the previous was doing.

The meshes do something special but may not be to everyones tastes.

Curious, I read that Israel really liked the KR Balloon in his amp. Have you ever tried them?

onemug February 18, 2013 01:54

I'm very pleased with the EML meshes. I liked them right out of the box and much more so with some hours on them.

Before you think of buying a pair, make sure you ask Mr. Blume what he runs the Franks "plate voltage" and "bias" at. Meshes can't dissipate as much as a solid plate and you could lose their 1 year warranty if the tubes are ran too hot. They explain it on their website. Basically, for warranty, they require the tube be ran between 22 and 28 watts dissipation. My amp runs 350v at 60mA which multiplies out to 21. I think you are going to be fine but make sure.

onemug February 17, 2013 19:23

Hi Charles,

Thought I'd respond with a little more info to the EML quest I have in my own thread.

I have always liked the sound of the Sophia "punched plate". It has a quality about it that is hard to describe. My EML (solid plate), KR (balloon) and WE each have their own uniqueness but the Sophia did something that drew me in a little more. I have a feeling it has something to do with the "holes" in the plate. With the EML's being a real woven mesh, this could be the holy grail for me. A few people I know say it's very close the the AVVT mesh that I've heard so much good about.

I always wanted to try the EML mesh but there were blocks to me getting a pair. They just got removed and I'll be getting them Wed. On paper, the EML "mesh" should kill the Sophia/TJ "mesh" but I will seen in real life soon. I'll let you know about it here.

Curious, have you ever heard the mesh/punched plate in your system?

onemug January 21, 2013 17:05

Thank you Charles and Gary. Sounds like the RP's are worth the jump in price. So, just how close is the RP to the Takatsuki?

I wish I didn't have to buy a total of 4 tubes....although I'm playing with the idea of 4 Takatsuki's and when I'm not using them in the pp 300b, use 2 of them for my SET.

I'm on the cusp of the "diminishing return" law, any thoughts would be appreciated.

onemug January 14, 2013 15:27

Hi Charles,

I've read your comments on the Shug Black Treasures. I think you ranked them 3rd behind the Takasuki and Sophia Royal Princess. You have me thinking about the Takas for my best 300b SET amp but I also have a 300b push-pull that I'd like to get "4" nice tubes for but not the Takas.

I'd value your opinion between the RP's and the BT's.

Do you plan on keeping your BT's?

onemug January 13, 2013 16:21

Agear, good thoughts. Even at our own end of the listening chain it may come down to the speaker and how live or dead the room is that could give us a preference for one type or the other.

Charles, Jazz is my favorite listening these days. I saw Sarah in person in a small and intimate setting many years ago. Very memorable. I have none of her albums, trying to figure why that is. I have been listening to MOG lately and it gives me the opportunity to cue up an entire album. I will listen to both of the ones you mentioned. Thanks for the recommendations.

onemug December 31, 2012 18:45

Thanks Charles, very well put, as usual.

onemug December 30, 2012 01:12

Hi Charles,

I know how much you love your Frank's and that they are transformer coupled. Transformer or Capped, I guess each has its sets of pluses and minuses.

Based on what you hear with the Duelund cap and just speculating, what do you think the Franks would sound like if they were cap-coupled with the Duelunds instead of TC'ed?

I know, pretty abstract but I have a few of those thoughts roaming around in my mind and like the way you have achieved your success.

onemug December 29, 2012 18:06

Hi Charles,

Been checking in on this thread lately with interest. I have a few products that use a special capacitor. It's not a name brand but one that my engineer friend makes himself for his products. I haven't heard the Duelund but I know what I hear in mine is certainly up there in the WOW factor for me. When I hear a like product without them, it has a somewhat sour sound. So count me into the "Cap believer" club. Congrats on your find.

Agear,

Wanted to thank you for the link to the "Nuances" article. I read it 12 yrs ago and to date, it's still one of my favorites. Rereading it again, as I've "allegedly" matured during that time, was refreshing.

onemug December 12, 2012 18:15

Charles,
I like EML's. I have their 300b and 45 solid plates, never tried their 2a3. I've been using the Sophia 2a3 Princess Mesh for the last 2 years. The bias started wandering on one of them and that's why I started looking for a replacements.

One thing I have to balance is the blend between the amps I use in this "active" set up. The x/o is around 2.8k so I hear some of the 2a3 below that and some of the 300b above that point. Ahhhhh, the days of just using "one" amp. :)

Gsm18439,
Takatsuki.....Charles plants the seed and you water it. :)
If I ran "only" a 300b amp, I would have already bought a pair. I'm sure they are worth it. Harder to decide when they would only be used from around 2.8k and below.

I guess the BT and EML would be at or near the top choices for 2a3's. Do either of you have an opinion as to which of the 300b's you've heard would "blend" better with the 2a3?

I had been using Sophias 300b Princess mesh to go with their 2a3 mesh. Now with the BT's, I'm going to roll my EML's and KR's in and see how that goes. Maybe the Takatsuki IS in my future.

onemug August 24, 2012 16:07

Thanks again Charles,

Installed the BT 2a3's about an hour ago. I like them out of the box (always a good sign).

Happy listening.

onemug August 24, 2012 02:04

Thanks for the recommendations.

I remember the thread about the Taka's. If I ran my 300b amp full range I would definitely consider them. As is, in my bi-amp situation, the 300b amp only sees aroung 2.8k and below so I'd be wasting a lot of it's potential BUT I would bet on it being one of the best sub/2.8k sounds obtainable.

I believe you also tried out the Sophia Royal's, how would you rate them compared to the Black Treasures?

I will consider the Psvane Blacks. I think I read that the Shug's has a more romantic sound and the Psvanes a little more modern sound. Do you know the differences and who sells the Psvanes?

Thanks.

onemug August 23, 2012 18:34

Hi Charles,

I came across this and thought you might find it interesting. Shows how good the Franks are.

>>>>Magnepans (1.6's):

Personal Notes- I had no idea that the Frankenstein amplifier could be this versatile. My best guess is that the flat 4 ohm impedance of the Magneplanar is an easy load for the Frankenstein. At that point, it is just a matter of whether the top volume levels are adequate for the listener. For many audiophiles, this should not be a problem.

This happy result is also excellent news for the owners of other speakers with flat impedance loads (4 ohms or higher). How "excellent" can only be appreciated by those audiophiles who have actually heard the Frankenstein amplifiers at their considerable best. <<<<<

Also wondered if you still had your Shug 300b-z. I'll have their 2a3-z shortly and would like to try their 300b-z for the 300b amp part of my bi-amped system. Any interest in selling or trading them?

onemug August 22, 2012 19:10

I seem to prefer (slightly) the "un" on the Pass ss and the big Cary 805AE's and the "s" (again, slightly) on the more delicate 300b's and 2a3 amps. The s's are 2 yrs old, the un's were new in early Jan so they may change a little more with time. Herculean effort over...time to go right brain. Enjoy!

onemug February 20, 2012 14:54

"I`m curious to know what differences you find comparing the power cords."

It's been a month of "listening" to cords and I'm real glad it's over. I wouldn't have gone there but I have 9 amps in 3 systems that are hooked up and ready to go depending on mood and needed a few.

Result: I don't have a preference for either the shielded or unshielded. They both can do nice things. There might be a little more of that "dynamic contrast" thing with the unshielded cord but the shielded one is fine. I'm sure there are times of the day when RF/EMI and the such are polluting the air more than at other times making it hard to do a true/fair evaluation. I'm just glad I found what I needed and can go back to "listening" to music.

Having the same wire for a cord as what's in the amp (like you do) sounds like a great idea but not possible in my case. Now I can leave "well enough alone".

onemug February 19, 2012 19:16

Right now I seem to be favoring unshielded for my Pass ss. In a few days I will move them over to my 300b/2a3 biamp system. I'll report back here.

onemug February 04, 2012 03:48

I like SF's premise about the insulation. It's a fact that silver is a better conductor than copper. Some insulation has a higher absorbtive factor (I think EE's call it "soakage"). It makes sense to me that if you put poor quality insulation on a faster conducting material that you would get more smear. I'm sure there are many other possibilities for why silver can sound not so good.

I like the idea of copper a/c cables. As good as silver is, when there are miles of copper coming to a house and copper wiring inside an amp, putting 3 or 6 feet of silver in between seems counter-intuitive. Having the same a/c wire that is inside your amp seems like a path to "SET Bliss".

I'm currently doing an experiment between almost identical power cords only one is shielded and one is not.

Do you know if your Coincident power cords are shielded or not?

onemug February 03, 2012 16:23

Our paths seem to cross again. I started using silver/teflon sc's and ic's several years ago. I was very hesitant on doing so because of a "brightness" issue I've read about re silver cables.

There is no brand name to these, a friend (recording engineer) makes these for studios, a few friends and an occasional Gulfstream Jet (I can only dream of one of those). He sent me some, tried them, now they connect everthing in my systems.

I hear the qualities that you have described. I also remember hearing an improvement in the attack of a note. Our SET's do such a good job with the fundamental and especially the decay but I had never noticed that very brief moment leading up to the fundamental before. Do you hear that?

And here is a suprise for those who think silver is bright: I'm using these for sc's in my vintage system. Early solid state and silver, oh oh???. No, it sounds wonderful. It's just an "honest" cable. I have a feeling people have bright systems to begin with and the intro of silver just exposes it "honestly". For them, copper with thick insulation probably works better. I'm not surprised you like yours so much. Your system has so much to offer and the silver gives you more.

For power cords, what are you using and your thoughts/feelings on them?

onemug February 02, 2012 18:15

Charles,

Re our posts in the Zu thread about the Eddie Vaughn article, I thought I would add to them here rather than steer the thread away from the topic, plus I like looking at your system again. :-)

"I`m enjoying my SET 300b Frankensteins so much(exceeded my high expectations) not certain I`ll ever go back to PP amplifiers(who knows though)."

Just wanted to say that I have had a 300b push pull (Cary) for 4 months now. The idea was to see how much of the 300b "SET" sound, that I love so much, would carry over into a pp design. It goes quite far but not all the way "for me". This amp was tweaked with bypass and coupling caps by a friend who has always amazed me with what he can do, so I thought it be a good example for a comparison. I has that 300b tone but it seems that when I go back to se, everything just clicks. It was a big improvement over various KT88/6550 and el34 pp amps I've had in the past. The Marantz 8b (pp el34) does have its own charm and magic, I don't know why, just enjoy listening to it.

I did not sell any of my 300b SETs, wasn't even close to doing that, so the SET is still it for me too. If you should ever find a pp that does it for you, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Have fun!

onemug August 21, 2011 21:38

Thanks Charles1dad.

I have a Cary 300b push-pull. After I posted to you, I got an email from from my dealer that the 2 matched pairs weren't close enough to be considered a matched quad so they are sending me a quad of Gold Lion re-issues and will notify me when they get the next batch of Shug Treasures in. Makes me love my SET's. The GL's should still be an improvement over the used EH's that came with it.

onemug April 12, 2011 14:16

You have a very tasteful system in looks and components.

I will be getting a set of the Shug Treasure 300b's tomorrow. I know you are fond of them. How did they sound new/out of the box and did it take long for them to settle in? Thanks.

onemug April 11, 2011 19:31