Sunroom System

by p59teitel on Done For Now
Closeup of palm tree tweak
From 2012 with my late pal
Guts of Symphonic Line Kraft 250 mono
Symphonic Line gear and Ayre CDP
Straight on view
view from French door
View of Star Sound Sistrum Apprentice XL upper points supporting amp

Description

The new room deserved a new system. Starting in fall 2011, I replaced an old Kenwood carousel CD player, Yamaha receiver and Cerwin-Vega speakers system with Ayre C-5xeMP SACD/DVD-A/CD player, Plinius M8 pre-amp, Plinius SB-301 power amp, and Revel Salon 2 speakers.

At first I was extremely pleased and had no intention of upgrading. But the more I read on Audiogon about the synergy potential between a good tube pre-amp and SS power amp, the more curious I became. My two audio gurus - Scot Markwell of Elite A/V and Deadhead buddy David Minches - also suggested I might want to try doing this.

So after some research in came the Symphonic Line "The Enlightenment" tubed pre-amp, which I bought after confirming with Symphonic Line's USA rep and importer (and Odyssey Audio impressario) Klaus Bunge that it was a good addition and had been completely rebuilt. This brand intrigued me, if for no other reason than those who bought it seemed to hang onto it for a long long time.

Once I got some noisy tube issues resolved (UPS pounded on the box during shipping), it absolutely shone in my system, providing a more detailed while simultaneously more relaxed and more dynamic sound than the Plinius M8 pre-amp had done.

While speaking with Klaus about the pre-amp, he also told me about an available pair of Symphonic Line Kraft 250 monoblocks that he had imported for a customer. The customer's wife did not like the amps' appearance, and so after a couple of weeks back to Klaus they went. Intrigued, I bought them at a significant discount and they are now continuing to break in as the new cornerstone of my system. Even through break-in fluctuations, they are simply outstanding. If I had to pick four attributes, they would be as follows: very revealing and detailed without fatigue; incredible macro and micro-dynamics; accurate, tuneful and weighty bass with slam but no bloat or boom; and just a general ability to render music as music and, in so doing, disappear. I don't think calling them world-class is unreasonably gushy.

None of the above praise, however, should be taken as a criticism of the Plinius SB-301 power amp. It remains a fine product and it really showed off what it could do when paired with the Symphonic Line tubed pre-amp. If I had to assign a numerical value to the difference, I'd say it provides say 85% of what the Symphonic Line monos can do. Pretty impressive for something that costs a third as much.

So that's where things stand at present (Sept. 2012): I am a happy camper and can now simply listen to music without worrying about hi-fi issues.
Read more...

Room Details

Dimensions: 28’ × 16’  Large
Ceiling: 16’

Components Toggle details

    • Ayre C-5xeMP
    Finally arrived! Component assembly phase of system-building now complete and it's Tweak Time.* *edit 9-3-2012 - or so I thought six months ago! Symphonic Line tube pre-amp external power supply sits below the Ayre player, as it creates noise when placed under the pre-amp.
    • Symphonic Line Belcanto
    Two-box top of the line CD-only player, with 300VA transformer and 280,000µF capacitance. Detailed, dynamic and musical! Now it just needs a permanent home on a rack...
    • Symphonic Line Die Erleuchtung (The Enlightenment)
    Used tube pre-amp made in 1999 but completely reconstructed last year to current specs with current caps etc. Super dynamics, super musical, detailed across the tonal spectrum without any fatigue, and great synergy with Symphonic Line stablemate Kraft 250 monos. And all that with plain old inexpensive Elektro-Harmonix 6922 tubes!
    • Symphonic Line Enlightenment Power Supply
    As it is separate from the pre-amp itself, I felt it deserved its own entry. Contains 400 VA transformer and 70,000 μF capacitor (the 2013 model Symphonic Line power supply for this pre-amp is 300 VA transformer and 56,000 μF capacitor). No shortage of balls here!
    • Symphonic Line Kraft 250 Monoblocks
    Deep, powerful bass without boom or muddiness, clarity in the mids, and detail without glare in the highs. Dynamics both macro and micro are incredible. Forget the putative 250 watts designation: these are extremely powerful high current amps that effortlessly drive my large and inefficient Revel Salon 2s to concert SPLs without negative effect upon dynamics, tonal balance or detail throughout the volume dial. Per Klaus Bunge, the Symphonic Line USA importer (and Odyssey owner) who brokered my deal for these substantially new amps, the Kraft 250 monos bested even the vaunted Kraft 300 stereo amp he has in his personal system. I can't speak directly to that comparison, but I can say that I'm pretty sure I'm all set for the next decade or two.
    • Revel Ultima Salon 2
    Full range speakers that are very detailed across the tonal range. Highly integrated sound notwithstanding the multiple drivers. Soundstaging is excellent, as is dispersion that grows the sweet spot size and makes them perfect for large rooms. They handle dynamic shifts with aplomb - simply put, a drum hit sounds like a drum hit. Feeding and care with properly-matched amplification is key - they are not very efficient and so benefit from powerful SS amps. The beryllium tweeters are super-detailed and resolving and do not need any further help in that regard from your amplification. They sounded very very good with the Plinius gear. They sound even better with the Symphonic Line gear and IMO are of a quality to justify amplification that costs twice as much as they do. In the end it sounds silly to describe something that lists for $22K as a bargain - yet it really is.
    • Furutech Alpha S14 cable w/ FP-203 spades
    Custom 3-meter PCOCC-alpha copper speaker cables, assembled by Scot Markwell of Elite A/V. Nicely detailed without sounding etched, they excel in the low end.
    • Furutech Custom RCAs from Scot Markwell
    FA-220 PCOCC-alpha copper audio cable with FP120 F(R) rhodium-plated screw-down RCA pins.
    • Furutech Custom Power Cords
    Custom 1.5m 240V power cables assembled by Scot Markwell of Elite A/V in Los Angeles.

    FP3TS20 Power Cable with FI-11(G)
    IEC connectors and FI-E
    11(G) SCHUKO connectors. Used with Symphonic Line Kraft 250 monos.
    • Furutech FPSWSD (G)
    Schuko duplex wall socket; fed by separate 10/2 gauge electrical wires via 30 amp breakers (sheetrock repair TBD). Currently feeding the Symphonic Line Kraft 250 monos.
    • Furutech Absolute Power-18 power cable
    Stock Furutech alpha OCC power cables with rhodium-plated plugs
    • Furutech GTX-D (R) Duplex 120V Outlet
    Rhodium-plated duplex outlet that will replace existing Leviton 120V outlet feeding Ayre C-5xeMP and Symphonic Line tubed pre-amp.
    • Plinius M8
    No phono stage. Currently on the bench after being replaced by Symphonic Line tubed pre-amp, it served me well for 10 months. Very good bass in particular.
    • Plinius SB-301
    Class A/B with heavy Class A Bias; 310 wpc into 8 ohms, 470 wpc into 4 ohms. Currently on the bench after new Symphonic Line Kraft 250s entered system. An excellent stereo amp that performed admirably in all aspects, and really showed its stuff when mated to the Symphonic Line tubed pre-amp for a few weeks. It took world-class monos that list for over 3X as much to knock it out of my system.
    • Furutech FA-220, FP-601M(G) , FP-601F(G)
    FA-220 cable w/XLR interconnects. Currently on the bench because new Symphonic Line gear is single-ended only.
    • Star Sound Apprentice XL Platform
    The Apprentice XL Platforms recently replaced Star Sound's Audio Points that had resided under the Salon 2s for six months. Without getting into a two-page dissertation about what they do, I'd summarize that they put even more meat on the musical bone (tonal richness and heft) while simultaneously removing even more film from the window into the music. I have no idea how this stuff works...but it does! And now I have a pair under the amps too, also working to good effect.
    • Furutech Custom Power Cords
    Custom 1.5m 240V power cables assembled by Scot Markwell of Elite A/V in Los Angeles.

    FP3TS20 Power Cable with FI-11(G)
    IEC connectors and FI-E
    11(G) SCHUKO connectors. Used with Symphonic Line Kraft 250 monos.

Comments 37

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I love your room and system, both! Wow!

b_limo

Owner
Thanks for the compliments! The Symphonic Line gear is something else. As for room correction software, I'm pretty happy with the sound despite the handicaps the room presents, but I will certainly look into it once I go beyond playing files from my laptop with Jriver and further into a serious computer audio setup.

p59teitel

One beautiful system.
I Would love to hear the symphonic line components.I have heard the odyessey component & they sound good.

I have noticed your conversations on room issues.You should try a free go at DIRAC room and impulse control.
I am using computer audio and amarra with Irc(DIRAC)

It made a HUGE difference for me.

The Palm looks wonderful.

Jeff

frozentundra

This is one hell of a system,...congratulations!

zephyr24069

Owner
Well, after a week it seems the palm trees have really broken in nicely, LOL!

Seriously though...they have not only calmed down the high frequency punch coming from the "hot corners" a bit, but seem to have a beneficial effect on soundstage depth and imaging as well. Now I'm looking at whether I can maneuver a couple more in behind the components and calm the front wall even more...

p59teitel

Owner
Latest tweak - two Majesty Palms from Lowes, parked behind the Salon 2s. They definitely reduce some of the high frequency energy coming off the front wall, which can be a bit much on hot recordings.

A very positive result for less than $100 invested for both trees and pots.

p59teitel

Owner
System edited: A second pair of Star Sound Apprentice XLs now resides under my Kraft 250 monos. I think they may have a greater effect under the speakers but under the amps they have relaxed the sound a bit while tightening up imaging.

p59teitel

Owner
System edited: Changes over last several months include Sistrum Apprentice XL stands under speakers and new Symphonic Line Belcanto CDP/DAC. Very pleased with both additions.

p59teitel

Owner
System edited: Update 2-14-2015: latest addition is a pair of Star Sound Apprentice XL platforms under the Salon 2s. They have brought more low-level detail, heft and realism to the system, almost like some film has been Windexed off of the window into the music. Yet the sound is more relaxed as well, the attributes do not come with any sense of etching or overhyped treble. I highly recommend this product.

p59teitel

05-24-13: P59teitel
Thanks for the compliments, Glen. The glass in the room does force me into the nearfield for listening. I don't do all that badly with reflections from the side wall that has the most glass, perhaps because the windows have large trim due to 6" studs required per the building code. The opposite side wall has a French door fortuitously placed right where the first reflection point is, that I leave open.
P59teitel, With your glass room, may I suggest checking out Synergistic HFTs or Audio Magic Bells?

I've been remodeling my home and the walls in the family room where the system resides are bare. I tried HFTs after watching/reading reviews and to my surprise, it dramatically improved SQ. My room is a large 25'x33'x15' ... finally settled on 3 packs (5 HFT per pack). BTW, HFT has a 30 days money back guarantee so you can return if it doesn't work for you.

SE MA ... are you located in the Cape Cod area? I live in NE MA.

knghifi

Owner
System edited: Latest change: added the Star Sound Audio Points 2.0AP-1 threaded brass spikes under the Revels. Results? Impressive tightening of bass while adding quite a bit of slam, more detail, a higher and deeper sound stage. Even added speed and dynamics to a system that previously was anything but languid. They made the sound more forward and detailed, yet did not make it more fatiguing. Eagerly awaiting a pair of Star Sound Apprentice XL platforms for the Revels when they become available this fall.

p59teitel

Owner
Last month I rolled in some defective tubes (my bad, should have checked first) that immediately upon startup cooked a resistor and some caps in my SL pre-amp. So off it went for repair.

While I awaited its return, I subbed in my Plinius M8 pre-amp. It did quite well, particularly in the areas of extension and neutrality, and music remained listenable. Its faults - to my ears anyway - that bothered me the most were a comparative leanness and more clinical sound than the SL, along with a less precise and shallower soundstage. Microdynamics were also not as well articulated as with the SL.

Interestingly, I'd always seen myself as someone more concerned with dynamics and timbral accuracy than other qualities, but I guess the SLs superior overall abilities have made me a pretty spoiled listener. Accordingly, I am pleased it is fixed and back again in my system.

p59teitel

Owner
Latest tweak: Furutech TF series fuses for IEC inlets on CD player, pre and power amps.

A revolutionary difference? No, can't say that. Is there a positive difference? Yes, it seems a wee bit more punch has been added (not that the system lacked in that area with the OEM fuses). Top end a bit more resolved and soundstaging improved also.

Would I recommend these fuses? Yes. Next step may be replacing the rail fuses for the power amps.

p59teitel

Owner
Lapierre, I'll follow your system page to see how you make out with the sub. Interestingly, I recently violated the audiophile tenet that gear must be isolated from vibration, and pulled the spike feet off of my Salon 2s to see if that would help with the bass. And it did! It's a wee bit looser than before, but overall I am pleased to have the room more involved. I guess the question now is, do I shell out $$$$ more to get that last db or two of low end I still would like to have?

The Kraft 250 monos may well be my last amps. The marriage with the Salon 2s is perfect.

The sunroom gets warm in the summer, as the Marvin window glass is specifically designed for northern climes and has a high solar heat gain coefficient. Good for the heating bill here in SE Massachusetts in winter, but I am glad to have central air when it gets over 90 in the summer! I'm also glad the Kraft 250s run pretty cool for Class A amps - the Plinius SB-301 I had in the system previously was a space heater even at idle.

p59teitel

Just started to integrate REL into my setup. Research may start there.

Nice pickup Kraft 250 monos.

BTW...how is your sunroom during the summer months?

lapierre

Owner
Thanks for the compliments, Glen. The glass in the room does force me into the nearfield for listening. I don't do all that badly with reflections from the side wall that has the most glass, perhaps because the windows have large trim due to 6" studs required per the building code. The opposite side wall has a French door fortuitously placed right where the first reflection point is, that I leave open.

I may someday end up treating the opposite wall with something on a roller, but for now hanging a few suit coats reduces slap echo surprisingly well. I also have a couch, chaise and love seat behind my listening seat that cut down on reflections. My biggest issue? I feel I could use a bit more bass, and am starting to research subs.

p59teitel

Great system, and sweet room to listen in with that terrific outdoor view. Any concern about room treatment with all that glass? Happy listening and viewing as the seasons change.

glenfihi

Owner
Latest change is to roll NOS Mullard CV2492s (1972 vintage) into the SL pre-amp, in both the CD input buffer and output slots. Still breaking in, but so far they have proven to be both less dry than the stock EH 6922s while simultaneously adding an increased level of detail - without fatigue - and bass weight. Soundstage width and especially depth is considerably improved. Very impressed.

Before that, I tried a Genalex Gold Lion in the CD input buffer slot with the EH 6922s remaining in the output sockets. That produced a slight mellowing of the upper mids and highs but I think slightly at the expense of detail, at least as compared to the Mullards. Still, the combo did present an improvement in listenability and is certainly a cheaper option than the Mullards.

FINALLY will be wiring and installing the new Furutech duplex 120V receptacle for the pre and CD player this week. Looking forward to hearing what that does.

p59teitel

Owner
Yes, I'm on the SE Massachusetts coastline. The room is a recent addition built specifically to take advantage of the water view. I'm self-employed and do a lot of my work in there.

p59teitel

Super system. As a recent kraft convert I concur.
Cheers,
Sid

sidvee

Pretty sure I see water out the right side of your room. Do you live near the ocean or a large lake?

pdreher

Owner
Thanks Mattheus! The Symphonic Line combo is unbelievable.

My latest thing is tube rolling into the pre-amp - not because I have to, but because I can, LOL. Dropping a Genalex Gold Lion tube into the CD input buffer stage socket has produced a slightly warmer sound with a wider soundstage. I don't know if I always prefer this to the way it sounded with the recommended - and cheaper - Elektro-Harmonix tube, but it has helped tame CDs that are a bit too silvery in the upper mids and treble and made them more listenable at loud volumes.

p59teitel

Very nice system! I use Symphonic Line combo too. I'm getting the new Turbo Netzteil Reference; upgrading power seems to be very good to sound in my experience.

mattheus

Owner
System edited again. Added Symphonic Line Kraft 250 monos. Sound is now beyond what I thought possible!

p59teitel

Owner
System edited: System updated: added Symphonic Line "The Enlightenment" tube pre-amp. Sounds great already even with $7 Radio Shack ICs and power cord swiped from a Pioneer plasma display (waiting for new Furutech RCAs, PCs and 120V outlet to arrive). System is at a new level with one more significant improvement on the way!

p59teitel

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