My system was designed for blues, jazz, vocals, acoustical guitar, etc. It was not designed for the ground pounding bass that some people want. If you are looking for an un-natural bass sound then solid state is your answer. However if you are looking for true natural sound and bass, then my system has it.
When I started my search for a simple high-end system I walked into some of the biggest hype ever. Very few businesses sold tube audio and all stated that solid state sounded as good and all of the reviews I read all compared solid state to tube. My big question was if tube is the comparator for SS why not just buy tube?
One day in Seattle, Washington I was system shopping and listened to a Musical Fidelity flag ship system with B&W speakers. Price tag about 30k or maybe more, it was the 1KW system. By the way Musical Fidelity uses tubes in this preamp stage, again why? I then went up the road a few blocks to a small shop, Audio connection, owner John Zimmerman. There I found someone that was more interested in a system that sounded real then my credit card and how much was available on it.
The system that John had put together was the Cary SLI-80, Cary CD-303/200 and the Jamo speakers. I was in complete awe after hearing it. I had just listened to a 30k system, which sounded great but missed the fine edge of realism, warmth and character.
After my purchase of the Cary components I had a small issue with the CD player. Then the owner of Cary Audio Design, Dennis Had, stepped in and presented me with customer service that is unheard of these days. He was willing to stand behind his product until I was a completely satisfied customer. The only reason that anyone would go this far is due to the fact that the product is some of the finest built and any problem that makes it to the customer was unacceptable to Dennis. This is customer service at it s finest and I truly believe that anyone else purchasing Cary products can also feel safe knowing that Dennis Had and his team really do care about you the customer.
My final step was to add some good cabling without the hype. The owner of Echo Audio in Portland, Oregon helped me to clear up that issue. I added LAT International cables to my system at a price that I consider to be at the edge of diminishing returns. I believe I am getting the maximum value at a good price. The best thing about LAT cables is the fact that they build them to remove two factors, RF and EMI signals. I believe that it is not what you hear rather then what you dont hear, that is RF and EMI signals through your cables.
I then placed the components on a Standesign rack system. I replaced the wood with granite slabs to give it more stability.
The sound just keeps getting better and better as I pass the break-in point.
Special thanks to:
John Zimmerman of Audio Connection, Seattle, Washington
Dennis Had of Cary Audio Design
The good people and owner of Echo Audio in Portland, Oregon
Nickatkins, I had them made at a local granite cutting shop. I selected a piece of scrap that two 18 x 18 x 1 slabs could be cut out of. The original boards that came with the racks are not very heavy and tend to warp. The granite adds a great deal of weight to the stand. Find a place that mades granite counter tops, which are popular now, and ask if they sell the scraps, most do. The big cost is cutting the slabs, they charge by the inch. After I had the slabs cut I did not have the edges finished due to the high cost, I just used a clear lacquer to finsh the edges. You can have them rounded and polished for about another $200.00.
Very nice. I have had similiar experiences in High End Salons. A Cary Integrated Amp with a nice source will usually come out on top when compared to a vast number of SS based systems. Congrats on a nice simple set up. Bet it sounds wonderful.
Jford, I am extremely pleased to see that you are using the Jamo's. I have the Jamo Concert 8 bookshelves and I just can't get myself to replace them. I've auditioned many other speakers by dynaudio and jm lab but haven't found any with in a reasonable price jump to purchase. I was thinking about trying tubes myself. I am using Naim equipment right now which has paired up extremely well with my speakers. When shopping around I will keep Cary in mind. It is always nice to find a company that will stand behind their products. Congratulations on your system and good luck with any future changes. Bill
Jax2, yes, you are correct John Zimmerman at Audio Connection in Seattle Washington is the gentleman that has impaired vision. However it does take a while to figure that out the way he just flies around his store. He knows it well and knows were everything is placed. The components of my system were selected by John and when it comes to hearing I truly believe he does have something over us, to him it is a gift. We all know the wonders of the human body and how if one of our 5 senses has been compromised the others compensate. I have yet to find anyone that could carry a good argument opposing his true talent. The passion that he has for his work is indescribable, one just has to visit to truly believe that sound comes first and then if he makes some profit it was just a good day.
I am very frugal when it comes to spending and always looking for a good deal on every purchase I make. When I experienced what the wife and I did at Johns store we felt that paying full price for the Cary SLI-80 was not an issue. I have never had such an experience anywhere else that can come close to that one. It was like he has this cult following of loyal customers that even come by just to visit. While we were there several people came by calling themselves friends of John and they were customers. Several even set down with us to listen in on the music and share comments. I felt as if I was just setting in his living room at his home with friends around listening to music as it was meant to be. John has earned my respect, my future business and the customer service that followed from John and Dennis Had of Cary Audio more then covered the cost.
In closing, in my book John is a true Audiophile God and for those of you that get the chance to be in Seattle, look up John and visit his shop, spend a little time there and you will experience something special.
Marco, if you get by there soon tell John hi from James in Portland. Another impressive thing about John, he remembers his customers. To John my name is James not VISA.
Congratulations on getting putting together a system you enjoy. If John Zimmerman is the gentleman I believe he is (he has impaired vision, doesn't he) you happened into an outstanding dealer IMO. I have not been there in many years (nor to any audio dealers for that matter since I buy virtually all my gear through Audiogon), but I do remember him very well - My overwhelming impression was of a dealer who had great passion for music and products that reproduce it best. I know exactly what you mean when you said his interest was not in the sale as much as in listening to your needs and sharing the passion. I would have to say that was my experience of him as well. I have a few friends and acquantances who have developed similar respect for John, and continue to go back to him for all their gear. Good on'ya! I'm going to have to go back there sometime soon!
I've done numerous ABA ABC comparisons of tube and SS gear over the years. Heard some pretty outstanding gear in both realms. At times I've been impressed enough with SS to want to try it again, but whenever I do the A/B Tube/SS thing to really give it a fair shake, or whenver I've actually purchased an SS piece to live with for a while, I always end up going back to tubes again. I consistently have preferred tubes to SS. Distortion or not, it just sounds better to me. I remain open to change, but for now tubes are where it's at for me.
Stuartbranson, I think Ill play with placement a bit more, covering the window in that room is a limited option.
The bass in the Jamo speakers is really fine, I was just stating that it is more natural or true to sound and not added bass. It really depends on the recording and how much bass the tech puts into the mix. I have found that playing CDs that had been recorded in the HDCD format seam to have a bit more real bass opposed to the tech mix. So it really does very from recording to recording. The sound of the upright bass sounds real and the sound of the musicians hand slapping the strings comes through without being muffled by the bass over powering the little fine subtitle sounds I want to hear.
I actually tried a pair of Paradigm studio 60 v2 on this system in the same room and the metal tweeters just about drilled holes in my head. It was not a good match so I then went to the Jamos as advised by the store in Seattle. They retail for $3800.00 and I was able to get them for $2500.00 new in sealed boxes full warranty. The Paradigms have been moved to my TV room where they are currently being driven by my 80s Denon Class A amp, its is a good match and great bass.
I did however audition many other speakers but most were driven by solid-state amplification. My favorites are the josephs Audio Pearls, a bit pricey for now and it doesnt look like the used market will ever bring me a pair. The Jamos I had listened to in the Seattle shop for hours and it was something I just could not walk away from. It just turns out to be a very good match. And position is not a real critical issue like the Paradigms, they had to be set just right and you couldnt even move your head. By then the tweeters were in your face. The Paradigms were just not in the same class as the Jamos and Cary combo.
What I would like to hear in the future is a pair of Avantgarde Uno or Duo speakers on a Cary tube, but for now Im pretty darn happy with what Im hearing.
For now Im going to try a few new positions and may even try a new wall.
Jford, I had an SLI-80 that came with Tesla KT-88's which burned out and I replaced them with the Svetlana KT-88's which were a huge improvement in the sound, especially in the bass. Can't say what 6550's sound like but I was under the impression that the newer model of the SLI-80 came with them instead of the kt88's in the older model (which I owned), hence my question. I've since gone onto a 15w SET amp and still miss the tightness of the bass in the Cary. Kinda surprised that the bass is an issue for you. I asked about the treatment because the large window. Figured a curtain might help. I too have a difficult room and have had some success with DIY bass traps ala Jon Risch and strategically placed bookshelves, the odd piece of foam and curtains. Not ideal, mostly because of the shape but I'm liking my sound too.
What have you compared your speakers too. I once saw a pair of the same Jamo's being sold as a demo pair locally and considered them but I couldn't get a listen or the money.
Jford, thanks for understanding and accepting my apology.
If I were in your shoes, I believe I would choose a solid-state phono stage and there are some decent ones available like the Lehmann Black Cube, the Phonomenon, and probably a few others worthy of consideration. Perhaps other A-goners can give you more good suggestions for solid-state contenders. Your situation is actually ideal for adding a solid-state phono because you have tubes ahead of it in your signal path. That way, some of the bass slam and high-frequency detail will come through and your Cary amp will add that midrange sweetness. If you use tubes, noise becomes an issue and the other issue is, as I said previously, compounding the tube colorations in your chain of electronics.
If you did choose a tube phono stage, I would go for one with a minimum of tubes (like one for each channel). I had the original Herron tube phono stage in my system once and liked it very much. I thought it was very accurate and musical, but these tend to be a little pricey, even on the used market.
As for a turntable choice, I think the VPI Scout with the 9" JMW arm is a very worthy contender. You may even find a used TNT Jr at a good price that could be better still. I owned a Michell Gyro SE for a while and thought that it offered great bang for the buck too. Plus, the Gyro's aesthetic appeal, smallish footprint, and high WAF is undeniable. One of the aforementioned VPI TT's with a JMW arm (recent versions are best), or alternately, something like a Rega RB 600 Silver would be very good choices in my view. If you're on a tight budget, you'd be surprised how good an old AR belt-drive with a modest arm and a Grado MM cartridge can sound...
Stuartbranson, Thinks for the kind words. And yes, it still has the KT-88s that came with it and to me they sound great. I didnt have a choice when I purchased the amp. Would the 6550s sound better in the Cary? I have though of changing them down the road to something else if it really made it sound better.
The room has no added treatment in it. It was a hard room to work with, it is L-shaped and the direction I have them in now seams to sound great. I was going to try another wall that would give me a little better spacing of the speakers. They are now set at the minimum distance apart.
Plato, apology excepted, It is good to see some one not afraid to speak his mind and better yet to see some one willing to take responsibility for his words spoken. Youre alright!
Your arguments on the issue of bass and solid state are well founded and I do miss some of the bass factor in my tube system. However for me it was something I was willing to part with for now so I could listen to the types of music I have chosen. I am a rock and roller from the 70s and I do miss putting on one of my old vinyls Led Zeppelin and hearing the driving force of the drums and guitar.
Now for another statement you made about tubes the more of them you have in the signal path the more colored your system will be. Help me here because Im not done with this system and I have one heck of a vinyl collection dating back to the very early 70s and some of them have never been opened.
Heres my question: Do I add a phono preamp that is tube to connection to the Cary? I was thinking of adding an AES PH-1 with the upgrades. Which is a Cary company, you may already know that. Will I be adding to much tube in the path?
I felt this would be a great question for you because I went in to see your systems and noticed that you also have quite a vinyl collection and I believe I saw two turntables.
The issue of a turntable is still open also, VPI, Music hall, Nottingham, etc.
Congratulations on achieving such a musical system, using taste, synergy, and the support of a dealer who listened to you, as well as listening to the equipment he sells. As a Cary tube fan whose NOS amp was still treated like a member of the family ten years after its manufacture, I can also attest to the great emphasis by Cary on customer satisfaction. Plato, you are a real gentleman, after all. Any of us can occasionally express a thought, and after seeing it in print, wish for the edit button.
Sorry about the tone of my comments from yesterday -- I believe I was having a "bad-hair day". I can understand your affection for tubes and the solid-state vs. tube debate is certainly nothing new.
HP of TAS observed more than 30 years ago that solid-state held and advantage at the frequency extremes, while tubes ruled the midrange with their generally smoother, more liquid presentation.
A lot of people use tubes for their midrange qualities and/or to tone down speakers that are aggressive in the high frequencies. Personally, I like hybrid designs, that use a tube input stage and solid-state output devices. To me they are usually the best compromise. Plus, many of today's tube amps use solid-state power regulation, so they are really hybrids of a kind.
Congratulations. Always like the clean and compact systems. No doubt yours sounds great. I have fond memories of my Cary SLI-80. I notice you have KT-88's (svetlana?) instead of the 6550's. Was this your choice or do they come with them now? Do you have any room treatment?
Well, I'm glad that you love your sound and you think you achieved good bang for your bucks.
As I'm sure you're aware, many folks would argue that solid-state is superior to tubes -- especially at the frequency extremes. I have used both tubes and solid-state and my feeling is that there are very natural and detailed electronic components from both camps. That said, I have never known tubes to be as extended and articulate in the bass as competent solid state. I have heard a lot of tube amps exaggerate the midbass and roll off the bottom octave, which a lot of folks like.
All tubes produce distortion and the more of them you have in the signal path the more colored your system will be. Many folks just love tube colorations and you must be one of them. I have one tube in the signal path of one of my systems and I like its euphonic effects very much. But I won't kid myself that tubes are more "accurate". In some systems they can sound simply wonderful, but they almost always limit bandwidth, add noise, and obscure fine detail. If you are going to use them, I say use them in moderation.
Right about now, you're probably saying to yourself, "What the heck is this guy talking about." In another 10 years, if you stay with the hobby, it'll make more sense. Heck, in another 10 years we'll all probably be using digital amplifiers and using players with solid-state memory and no moving parts.
As for your dealer not being interested in your credit card; well, did he give you the system for free??? I think not. To his credit, it does take a modicum talent to be self-serving while not to appear so. Face it, he knew how to push your buttons. Irregardless, he sold you a nice sounding system and you are obviously happy with your choices. Enjoy!
