George, Glad to hear from you. Glad to hear that you are still enjoying the 2Ce's. If you are getting itchy to upgrade, adding a 2Wq or even a pair is a nice way to improve on the 2Ce's. If you ever decide to do that I can give you some advice on how to get the best sound from the set up.

The Pahantom project is going quite well. I still have a ways to go with the cosmetics, but that is coming along too.I just need to do things in the right order.
I did make some crossover adjustments to the zeobel networks to compensate for the different voice coil inductance of the new drivers and added new Solen Fast Caps for the woofers low pass filter circuit and one in the band pass for the mid. The X-over is all film caps now and is sounding very good. I will replace more of the old caps as funds allow. Some of them are old Mexican made Texas Instruments mylars and the likes. Not great stuff. It's a good sign that if they sound this good with some of that stuff still in there that it will only get better as I repalce them with most likley TRT DynamiCaps a little at a time.

I am experimenting with the speaker isolation stands right now with encouraging results. That will only get better too. The system is working real well. New pre amp tubes, Electro Harmonix 6922 gold pins, took the whole thing up a notch and I built an isolation base for my Monster power conditioner that feeds the front end. It's been fun to have it come together so well.

Great to hear from you George. Very happy to hear that you like the speakers. I enjoyed them when they were here too.

maxgain August 31, 2004 16:12

Was browsing in A'gon tonight and saw the virtual system picture on the homepage, and the Vandersteens. That particular cloth color is pretty rare. Then I saw your name and knew the speakers in the picture are actually mine. I now have the Vandersteens in the picture. They are still making magic for me in my system. I'm starting to get the itch to try something else, but I think it will be awhile yet. Thanks again for keeping them in such fine shape before you sold them. They still look like new. Sounds like you've got quite a project going with the Phantoms. Good luck and happy listening . . . george

gmueller August 30, 2004 21:45

Another update on the Phantom project.

The Foster tweeter and Polydax dome mid both reside in a small cabinet of their own mounted atop the woofer box. The mid/tweeter box is roughly 10 1/2" tall, 6" wide, and 5" inches in depth. Both the drivers are sealed back units, so the air volume behind them is just wasted space. I treated the interior cabinet walls with a thick layer of Moretite constrained by a layer of foil. I then filled the remaining volume of the box with fine white sand. I have to say that this worked out very well indeed. The drivers now seem better able to resolve subtle information. The sound is more relaxed and has better focus. It was worth the effort.

I am tweaking the crossover a bit with some better film caps as well as working out the new speaker isolation stands. Both of these are yeilding good results. I have take it slow. I don't want to change too much too soon.

maxgain July 03, 2004 09:35

System edited: I have updated the information about my on going modification of the Kindel Phantoms. I have replaced the original Polydax woofers with Audax HM130Z12 drivers. These utilize an Aerogel(HDA)composite cone and a rigid die cast Zamik chassis. They incorporate a high loss Norsorex(this is the same material that "dead balls" or "sad balls" you may have read about are made of) surround, phase plug, vented pole piece, and a raised spider. These are very very similar to the mid drivers used in many of the higher priced Von Schweikert loudspeakers. This drivers cone material(HDA) is a state of the art composite of carbon powder, Kevlar, and cellulose acitate pulp. This composite cone is said to be extremely light and rigid as well as being self damped. I'm still breaking them in. They are working out very well with a few adjustments to allow for their added sensitivity. So far they sound wonderful. I am still tuning the systems Q a bit and will need to be patient until they are fully run in.

maxgain June 20, 2004 08:30

System edited: I have been in a vibration control mode now after being reminded once again of the gains that can be had after the installation of the woofer platform. I tried two more tweaks this week that were very worth while. The first one involved a bit of energy control for the Phantom's woofer baskets. The Polydax woofers with their stamped baskets are soon going to be replaced by new very high quality Audax HM130Z12 Aerogel drivers with very sturdy cast frames. Until then I tried a bit of(quite a bit) moretite applied on the back of the drivers and on the basket of the 8" passive(which is also going to be replaced by a SEAS unit). The thing that I didn't expect was the increased output from the drivers after this application. It required the speakers be re-positioned a bit to get a good bass blend again. I may experiment further with this by creating a constrained layer by placing foil over the top of the mortite and see what happens. They have a lot more punch with this stuff on the woofers. The only down side is that the speakers now seem to put a bit more energy into the floor than they did. I am still working out the details for a set of stands for the speakers. Sand will come into play I can assure you. The next tweak worked remakably well. I borrowed the idea from Mike Elliot of Counterpoint. I read on his web site that he had made significant improvements by damping resonances of the printed circuit boards in older Counterpoint units like the SA 5 and now offers it as an upgrade. He compared it to the sound of point to point wiring. The technique is very simple and involves the use of thick wool felt pads applied to the pc board. I placed thick blocks of felt between the bottom cover of the SP 9 and the board. I was careful not to block air flow to keep things cool. The felt is slightly compressed between the board and the bottom cover. I could tell a big difference in the way the chassis sounded when taped on after I put it back together. I not only seems to deaden the pc board but helps to deaden the bottom cover as well. This is a great tweak. It gave the system an even smoother and more open sound along with greater weight and authority in the low bass. It increased the overall realism of the presentation. I'm very pleased to say the least. The plan is to go after more vibration and resonance. There are a few places in the system I have my eye and ear on that I think will get me closer to where I want to go. To be continued............. from "The Further Misadventures of Maxgain, Resonance Hunter"

maxgain May 22, 2004 09:24

After having a chance to listen to the system with the new sub platform in place I have to say that I expected an improvement but not to this degree. The woofer was able to exert quite a bit of sheer force on this old house in general. It caused a huge resonance in the kitchen which is adjacent to the listening room. It was quite unpleasant to be in the kitchen while the music was playing at anywhere near a lifelike level. Likewise the living room and dining room got the same soet of room boom. Perhaps worst of all even the bedroom was turned into a bass resonance chamber, which was very disruptive to my wife if she was in there trying to read or just resting while I was listening, heaven forbid she tried to sleep. I had some idea that the stand may eliminate some of this. To my delight it has done away with nearly all the transfer of bass energy throughout the houses other living spaces.

Now on to the real stuff. I had pretty good bass the way it was set up before. This is not a small improvement. It is a major step forward. It took a lot of room interaction away that leaves me with less overhang and much improved clarity, not just in the low end but overall. The bass has much better toneality and texture. I am sure that this is due to several factors. As i mentioned it isn't exciting the room in the same way and it helps my other isolation components do a more effective job. The turntable sounds vastly improved. Listening to vinyl last night reminded me of why I have kept the Well Tempered Labs around all these years. Vinyl kicks butt! I had never really warmed up to the V15 the way I thought I should until last night.

This worked so well that now I'm going to build a sand platform for the table as soon as I can. I also think that the amp and speakers are going to get the same treatment.

Anyone with a sub that can generate a lot of low frequency energy owes it to themselves to try this. I have to say I love it!

maxgain May 15, 2004 15:08

System edited: I replaced the Billy Bags 2020 amp stand that was under my 2Wq with a DIY clone of Bright Star Audio's, Big Rock. It holds over 60 lbs. of sand. After my initial experiments with decoupling speakers from the floor I have decided that this is the direction I am going with my system.I have a plywood floor which the woofer is able to excite quite a bit. I was able to make a substantial improvement placing the sub on the amp stand with Vibrapods between them rather than just on the stock spikes. Sand has the ability to dissapate a great deal of acoustic energy, converting vibrational energy into heat. I have not set the stand up yet and will update further after I have a chance to get the full scope of the changes in the sonic presentation. A second platform was built at the same time for a friends 2Wq. He reported improved clarity, not only in the bass but into the mid range, which I have to assume is due to less excitement of the room. He also reports better bass impact as well as improved bass texture. I should get a chance to hear it myself tonight. His woofer was on the standard spikes that come with the sub,also on a carpeted wood floor. He had gotten some gain just by putting some wood between the spikes and the carpet. He placed Mapleshade Isoblocks between the sub and the new platform. His platform sits directly on the carpeted floor and is also a corner placement like mine. I am going to use the same set of Vibrapods that I used between the sub and the Billy Bags stand. I am giong to lift my platform off the carpet with some old Mod Squad large Tip Toes I have lying about. I will give a more complete report soon. Thanks for reading along.

maxgain May 13, 2004 08:42

Ray, tube dambers are well worth the cost as tubes are very sensitive to vibration. Again, I have not tried them all. The clear rings from Audio Research made an improvement in the focus and clarity of my system for very few dollars. Music Direct sells some very similar to ARC's. They also sell the small Margio dots which could be used in combination with the rings or other dambers, like Top Hats. I would like to try the Herbie's dampers too.They make some that are large enough for 6550's for my amp. They are very reasonable in price and I hear good reports from the field. They also have some cool isolation feet that are reaonable and he seems to know a good thing when ne hears it. Here is the URL, http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/

maxgain April 20, 2004 21:09

Max- If you go with the BDR cones and pucks, they are said to provide 90% of the benefit of the shelf at a small fraction of the cost. Jeff's Sound values usually has B stock cones for $16/ea. And I will definately turn over those caps/filters. They sounded great and the subs are absolutely seamless; sometimes I have to check and see if they are plugged in, even now with my zHorn single drivers, they integrate seamlessly. I should have the rest of my new system here in about 2 weeks and will post details then. The combo is supposed to be magical, and its unlikely I will get the cash for 5s anytime soon (college expenses in 3 years!!!), so I am very hopeful.

swampwalker April 20, 2004 20:54

Thanks Maxgain,Your response has given me more confidence in isolation.Ive been checking out Black Diamond to,A bit pricey for me at the moment , Think I might start with some cones,and try to find an iso platform used.If I could ask one more thing it would be,your thoughts on tube dampers,, Thanks again,

raytheprinter April 20, 2004 18:12

Raytheprinter,Swampwalker,Lak,
Glad you guys looked in to see what's going on here.

Ray,As far as the tweaks, I have been a hard core tweaker ever since I got my hands on some Mogami speaker cable back in the seventies. I started playing around with isolation products the first time I saw the Mod Squad's Tip Toes and VPI's Magic Bricks back in the mid eighties. I feel pretty strongly that some form of isolation is essential for good sound reproduction. I am not in the business anymore and don't get the chance to try as many things out now. I am for the most part an isolation proponent. Some are ardent believers in products like the ones from Star Audio. Like I said I have not tried them all. I think that some combination of approaches might yeild the best results. With that in mind I am very confident that what products I am now employing in my system are contributing in a big way to the quality of sound I am able to achieve with the components I have. I have plans to take it a bit further in the future. I am in the planning stages of an isolation system for the speakers and the sub. After playing around with Vibrapods under my last pair of speakers to decouple them from the floor I am convinced that there are gains to be had in this area rather than just spikes(I have a plywood floor).The sub sounds much better sitting on a Billy Bags amp stand with Vibrapods between it and the stand that it even did on the factory spikes. I am considering starting with a sand type base for the sub and going from there. I want to incorporate the Bright Star Big Rocks in combination with the Air mass bases under the electronics, as well as under the TT. I think that this is the direction I am headed with the speakers too. Something like the Bright Star Air Mass under each speaker. I am playing around with alot of ideas. I have yet to try the roller ball devices, like the Aurios, and would love to see what they do. I am going to try the Marigo dots in a few places. The windosw need something and they make a constrained dampening dot that I gotta try. I am very interested in the Black Diamond racing stuff too. So many tweaks, so little cash.

Michael(Swampwalker), I will keep an eye on what you are up to.I understand wanting a pair of 5's. I have listened to the 5a and it is amazing. Sell that set of InfiniCap filters to someone here at AodiogoN,that is,if the person you sell your 2W to can't use them. I would be a shame to let them go to waste. They will put a smile on someones face who has been listening through a WX-2 or a pair of X-2's for high pass.

Larry(Lak) I tried it in the middle when I first got it and it sounded best in the corner.That was a different room though. I did move it quite a lot when I set it up in this room. I get quite smooth bass from it right now. You can't tell there is a sub in the system. It all sounds like it comes from the Phantom's. The plan is(I have way too many plans)to eventually get a second 2Wq for the other corner.

Like I said before, I am happy you guys are looking in.

maxgain April 20, 2004 16:51

Max,
Did you ever try putting your sub in the middle front of your room to hear what it sounds like there?

lak April 20, 2004 10:07

Max- re: power conditioning, you may want to try one of the Balanced Power units. I have a BPT-2 and it has done a fantastic job on banishing residual hum and low level grundge. Too bad you and RV never hit it off, but if your restoration project clicks, sounds like you will be in hog-heaven. Enjoy. (BTW, I have made a dramatic change and all of the Vandy stuff I have has/is going). Just wanted to move it up a notch and the price differential to go to 5s or 5As was beyond my budget. When its all together in about a month, I'll revise my system and post a picture.

swampwalker April 19, 2004 21:04

Nice system Maxgain,I noticed you have a lot of cool tweaks ,Id be interested in your thoughts on them, esp isolation ,thanks

raytheprinter April 19, 2004 18:23

They sound unique and most interesting. I hope to audition a pair someday. Thanks for sharing.

albertporter April 06, 2004 13:29

Hi Albert, thanks for looking.

The Phantom is a very interesting loudspeaker. As I mentioned in one of the system updates I had owned a pair before and loved them. The Phantom by it's self is best in a smallish room. It does have limited L/F output and dynamic capability due to the fact that the bass drivers are 5 1/4" (a pair for each channel)Polydax units in their own enclosure coupled to an 8" passive. At the time I traded the Phantom's for a larger pair of Kindel Audio PLS-a's,when I had moved into a place with a large room. The PLS-a was one of the first the line source speakers I was aware of. Bill Kindel used 6, 6 1/2" woofers and 16 Foster 1" dome tweeters per side. These were great in a big room. This was about the time that the Vandersteen 2W came onto the market. I had been experimenting with the 2W at the store having used it quite a bit with Maggies,Vandys, and the Martin Logan CLS with great results. I'm not sure why I didn't just pick one up at that time for use with the Phantom. Hind sight is 20/20. The 2W is the perfect answer to what the Phantoms needed to work well in a larger space.

Back to what the Phantoms do well. The Phantom is able to image on par with the Spica TC 50. The speaker has real speed due to the fact that the drivers are all low in mass for their given range. The Foster leaf tweeter is gem. It's a very good sounding unit and gives the Phantom extension and detail in the top, without being spitty or harsh, that the Vandy's couldn't come close to. The Phantoms sound more like Maggies or stats overall than anything else I can compare them to. Everyone who hears them comments on how acoustic guitar sounds "right there" and voice has a natural quality that I just love. In combo with the 2Wq(after some tweaking of the high pass filter point)the bass is quick and powerful and blends like there's no sub at all.

Even with this sort of performance, I am very confident that I can improve them. When I had the chance to buy this pair, they were in somewhat rough shape. I knew it was going to be some work to fully resotre them. I had the chance to take them home and play around with them. When I listened to them I quickly remembered why I loved them so much the first time around. They are a rare bird. Only 300 pair were ever produced and the chance might not come around again. While I did enjoy the Vandersteen 2Ce's, which overall are a classic, the Phantom in my mind is a significant step forward. I have listened to the Vandy 3A Signatures and liked them, but I wouldn't trade the Phantom for them. I was going to buy a pair of Maggie 1.6's but don't feel the need to now. I think the Phantom is here to stay for quite a while.

Albert,it's great hear from you. I hope this gives you some context of what the Phantom is all about.

maxgain April 06, 2004 08:37

No Vandies Max?? I liked your system, should have commented before you changed it.

Seriously though, how are the Phantoms?

albertporter April 05, 2004 22:15

Thanks Larry.

The photo is a bit out of date. As I have mentioned the Vandy 2Ce's are gone, replaced by an old pair of Kindel Audio Phantoms. These are an ongoing project. I have done some of the cosmetic restoration already along with a few tweeks. They now have a black laquer finish and are getting grill material to match the Vandy woofer. As time and money permits they will be updated with new crossover caps(they are 20 years old and have some electrolytics in there), internal wire, binding posts, black whole damping material, and perhaps even new 5 1/4" drivers(I am considering the same drivers used in the older Von Schwikert VR 4, which is a carbon fiber cone driver made by Audax).

I have added two new Custom Power Cord Co. Model Elevens, one for the SP 9(which was made possible after I installed an IEC, and made a huge difference in it's performance) and a 9 footer for the VT 50. This has been a very worthwhile upgrade. I have my eye on a CCPC "Top Gun" of some sort for the cd player to replace the "High Value". The power cords have improved the whole systems performance.I have plans to install an IEC on the sub and put a CCPC cord on it too.

The SP 9, already has a few of my tweaks and is slated for more. The InfiniCaps I installed will be replaced in the line stage only(the phono stage will keep the InfiniCaps as they are a bitch to install in a 9) by DynamiCaps(I love the DynamiCap!). The old filter supply cap will be replaced with a more modern and more compact cap in order to make some room to install some Fairchild Stealth diodes which I think will take it up another notch. The Alps film style vomule pot will be replaced by a Goldpoint or DACT stepped attenuator with much lower distortion, better tracking, and better overall clarity than the stock unit.In addition I have done some listening to the new Electro Harmonix 6922 Glod Pins and am very pleased with what they do in my friends SP 9 mk III, so in they will go, perhaps with some new trick tube sockets of some sort. The VT 50 will also get a few Dynamicaps to replace the stock InfiniCaps.

My custom made(DynamiCap) high pass filters for the Vandy woofer have made a huge difference and I have plans to take that one step further in the future by building a battery biased version similar to the Vandersteen unit used for the 5 and the 5a.

I still need to update my AC with new lines and have my eye on some new power conditioning from Audio Magic. Perhaps a mini stealth and a mini digital. I am open to any suggestions about the best way to improve in this area and get the best from the new lines. I have the pre amp and CD plugged into the inexpensive Monster HTS 1000(I have considered modding it with a better power cord and Porter Ports, but am not sure it's worth fooling with) unit which seems to do ok. The amps sound much better plugged directly into the Porter Ports

As if this list isn't long enought, I want to figure out some sort of stands for the Kindels, get another 2Wq, put them both on ASC Sub Stands,and upgrade all my cables to something like Kimber Select and perhaps Kimber Monocle XL for the speakers.

All this will take a very long time and some(some?$$$$$$$$) funds. I feel good to have a plan for they system laid out. It sounds pretty good now and is a lot of fun to listen to.

I AM a tweak junkie. My name is Maxgain. This is part of my 12 step program.

maxgain April 05, 2004 09:07

Oh yah...very nice system:-)!

lak April 02, 2004 07:19

System edited: I added some information about the drivers in the Phantoms.

maxgain September 24, 2003 06:05

Slipknot1, the iec on an SP 9 of any ilk is a delicate issue if you wan't it to look factory installed. The thing has got to be in just the right spot or the lugs will hit against the transformer. Make sure you keep it very low on the chassis and with the left side of the socket just touching against the fuse holder. That way it should clear the toroid and cover the hole for the stock cord. It's a sweaty palms operation. Use lots of blue masking tape to prevent marking up the back panel. I also recomend maksing and baging everything off to keep the metal shavings out of the works.Then clean up as carefuly as you can with a vacume and some of those little computer attachments. I take the knobs and front panel off before I start too. Just feels safer that way. Happy hacking!

maxgain September 12, 2003 19:46

I've been meaning to take the IEC on in my SP9 for a while, but I've making making so many changes, upgrades and tweaks in the last year, I've just been trying to listen to get a base line for where my system is.

slipknot1 September 12, 2003 19:05

Thanks Slipknot1,
The new speakers won't change the look or feel of the room much. I am putting a black laquer piano finish on them now(they were somewhat worn looking walnut with ratty black grill fabric) and have the beigh grill fabric that matches the 2Wq on it's way from Vandersteen. The Phantom's are rather unusual in that they are only 6 1/4" front to back, 18" wide and 40" tall.

If you can find someone to install an iec on your SP 9mkII so you can get rid of the silly 18 ga stock power cord it really ups the performance anty for that unit. I did mine and a friends 9 mkIII and we both use the CPCC model 11 cord. really takes it to a new level.

Enjoy.

maxgain September 12, 2003 18:23

Hey Max,

My system has actually remained the same for quite awhile in my personal relative terms. I think I found what I was looking for when I started that thread "transitioning from tube to solid state...". I am looking to add some art works on my wall after my artist friends decide to contribute.

I know what you mean about windows that face north. It's the most comfortable position for a window to be in for the inhabitant not only because it lets in light most evenly, but it also keeps the summers cooler and winters warmer depending on surrounding of trees and such etc. A window that faces north is the first thing I look for in a new place I am to move into other than a good room for the stereo.

Do update your pics when your new speakers settle in.

viggen September 12, 2003 17:09

Max,

I REALLY like the look of your setup. Well thought out, pleasing to the eye, and the room looks very conducive to putting the soul at ease to focus on the music. Nice work!

slipknot1 September 12, 2003 16:21